footbag.org

[Jeremy Mirken (TheSpecialist)]

Patrick Schrickel chose to "give up his body," in a controlled manner, in order to execute the type of spikes he thought would end points. That meant falling to the ground for his sweep. He fell by choice, and he knew he was going to fall. He was as mentally and physically prepared for these falls as he could be.

A player who receives a contact foul often is not prepared for the foul and the resulting change in body trajectory, especially if unaware of the opposing player's challenge. One cannot control this type of landing. The result is that the "receiving" player is typically thrown to the ground violently.

Whether intentional or not, flagrant contact fouls that result in dangerous situations to our players MUST be punished. We do not play a barbaric sport, we play a skilled sport . . . and we need to protect the skill of the players executing difficult movements.

[Grischa Tellenbach (grischa.tellenbach)]

Hi guys,

I’m sorry to learn that you (Jeremy) seriously injured your hand at Worlds during an official match. Especially since I was the ref of that match.
But I still think that the contact that caused your injury was not a bad intentional foul. Thanks to Cory I could review the scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bo2i2YCDcs at about 3min26sec.
The contact was on your side but yet really close to the net and Chris went up for a block (there is no kicking or striking motion). Your injury on the hand you landed on is rather due to the surface we played on, which is in my opinion too hard. The courts were made of hollow plastic squares placed on carpets which lied directly on a concrete floor. Yes the surface was as hard as it sounds like.

Nevertheless I agree that we should add something to the rules regarding contact fouls.
Something like a maximum number of contact fouls per player and per team before you lose a game.
Just a fictional example: after 3 contact fouls committed by one player or 4 combined contact fouls by a team, the team loses the game or something like this very straight forward.

Of course we should keep and apply the yellow and red card rule, but add a number of tolerated contacts before team/players loses a game.

Cheers.

G*

PS: what were the reasons for the 2 red cards you witnessed Chris if it wasn’t contact fouls ?

[Jeremy Mirken (TheSpecialist)]

The point is that, are any fouls in our sport REALLY intentional? Does anyone really try to hurt the opposing player? I don't think so. BUT, when a player does get hurt because of another player's foul, we must acknowledge it and penalize it. Or at least, it must cross the judges mind that there is the possibility of a player receiving a special type of foul or penalty, which now, does not happen.

[Steve Dusablon (dusablon)]

Flop.
Clearly a flop after review.
Our sport needs more flopping by flop-happy floppers.

[Tuomas Kärki (tuke)]

I don’t think we should start handing out penalties based on whether players get hurt or not. I think refs decisions should always be based on whether the contact was malicious/intentional or etc. That way we don’t leave any room for acting/filming. I’m not saying that would happen but it could happen in the future especially if get more players from countries like Spain or Italy..

As I said before I’m in favour of something similar Grischa is suggesting. That way every foul you make would take you a bit closer to ejection. Still an Immediate red or yellow card should also stay as an option for refs to use.

[Steve Dusablon (dusablon)]

Is it unsportsmanlike to flop?

If you roll spike with the intention of hitting your opponent directly in the sternum with a brand new net bag, is that intentionally trying to cause injury and therefor unsportsmanlike?

Are head judges going to have to call upper body contact fouls too?

[Emmanuel Bouchard (manu)]

Hey Duchessablond, why dont you try my rule? it satisfied both your crossing the plane fervor, and PT's rigtheous point on beeing able to spike on your side without having some ratard kick you.

Just to refresh your memory here it is again...

Proposed rule: You are never allowed to cross the plane EXCEPT:

1- When the set comes from your partner, THEN you are allowed to cross the plane but still not to make contact with your opponent.


Promotes offense, takes care of injury AND lets PT bounce spikes off the ground

So is this complicated? there is only one thing to know, which side did the set came from.

[Steve Dusablon (dusablon)]

I do remember this rule suggestion Mr. Mighty Midget.

One has to admire the simplicity of it, however it basically says that defense can never cross the plane. I, personally, am against that. It also allows Patti to toe jam on your side of the net at will.

I want a free plane with side-outs or points awarded for contact fouls and yellow or red cards served to those who are unsportsmanlike in ANY of their in game activities.

I am using my admittedly faulty memory here but in the recent Worlds doubles final I believe there were approximately 5 blocks total and 3 contact fouls called with ZERO injuries to either team.
These are numbers I can easily live with.

[Emmanuel Bouchard (manu)]

[Andrew Ronald (mongoose)]

I for one think Manu's proposal has considerable merit.

However I would ammend it so that it was a basis for flagrant fouls rather than allowing what can be done. Thus if you contact someone on the wrong side of the net and it was also your opponent's set then you would be subject to the "warning, point lost, game lost" penalties that Tuomas outlined, perhaps with some tweaking of the value maybe point lost, 2 points lost, 4 points lost, 8 points lost etc. or some other system that should incur stiffer penalties the more you transgress. If at any time such a penalty puts the score past the game's limits the game is immediately over.

However if you contact someone on the wrong side of the net but it was your own overset then it is just a normal contact foul as we know it now.

Further the yellow and red cards should be in the ref's pocket for such plays that go beyond simple contact and constitute dangerous play.

With such a system in place the abilities of the head judge become even more critical. Head judges would be required on every match not just the late stages of a tournament. This is something we should be aiming for anyway but we are certainly not close at the moment.

[John Leys (jleys)]

In the long run (20 years) crossing the plane in footbag net will likely be outlawed.

In the short-term I think we should seriously consider the idea that Tuomas brought to the table (points for contacts) and/or Manu's contribution (only cross when it is a set coming from your side).

Maybe it is time to set up a vote like has been discussed on the other thread so we can see what the community really thinks.

To me it appears that NPR is really the only club out there that wants the plane free unconditionally...

[Steve Dusablon (dusablon)]

I am not speaking for NPR as club, only for myself.

*I* think the plane crossing rules are fine as they currently are. This is NOT an "unconditionally" free plane, it is still a foul to contact someone on their side of the net (offense or defense EQUALLY) and a yellow or red card is given to anyone crossing whose intent is dangerous or malicious.

*I* am against changing rules simply for the sake of changing rules. I do not believe that changing this rule will "fix" anything. The game will continue to be played exactly how it is currently played only with less excitement and more spectator confusion.

*I* thank you for considering the voting process Johnny, and I will of course abide by the ruling of the footbag majority.

[Jeremy Mirken (TheSpecialist)]

*I* still cannot do a fucking push up with an open palm because my right wrist cannot take my body weight. I sustained this injury due to a plane foul at Worlds, now 2 months ago.

And screw your "it was the floor" comments; this particular contact foul was the ONLY time I had a "dangerous fall" in the entire Worlds tournament.

A new potential rule should be put to a vote. If the current rule is NOT to be changed, it should at least be enforced at IFPA sanctioned tournaments. I'm talkin real red and yellow cards, given to each "net judge" and that the topic of plane fouls be covered in the player meeting speeches just like all other important tourney agenda items.

[Kenny Shults (Enforcer)]

volleyball allows the block to occur on the other side of the net -

From FIVA official volleyball rules -
Block within the Opponent’s Space: The player may place his/her hands and arms beyond the net provided that action does not interfere with the opponent’s play. The player is not permitted to touch the ball beyond the net until the opponent has made an attack hit.

I like this rule because it allows the blocker to close the angle of the hit and therefore improve the odds of a successful block. It also eliminates any incentive to poach and therefore reduces the risk inherent in that.

[Scot Hansen (scothansen)]

Just to add my opinion to the mix- I think Andy Ronald's tweak to Manu's suggestion is right on the money.

Jeremy- your right wrist will heal quicker if you use your left hand in the shower.