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New IFPA membership structure proposal
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Steve Goldberg (brat)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Location: San Carlos, CA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great feedback, Brad (he says, sarcastically). It's somewhat obvious you didn't quite read the entire proposal. Which is understandable. It was long and had a lot of SAT words in it. Smile

Tier 0 members don't have access to IFPA-member-only features of footbag.org. If you want to have a video gallery on footbag.org to which you can upload and share videos, you have to join at Tier 1 or above. That's just one example; there are more services coming over time at the Tier 1 level.

Steve
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Anssi Sundberg (ana_ali)
IFPA Member


Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 20
Location: Turku, Finland

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit too long post with a bit too much hard words for me Laughing
Anyway, sounds great. I like the idea that there could be different kind of memberships.

I'm about to come a lifetime member of the IFPA pretty soon. I just need to get my pay pal working Very Happy

Support the sport!
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Jericho Cruzado (nogoodhack)



Joined: 04 Feb 2005
Posts: 50
Location: Kendall Park, NJ, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like it whoever proposed this (Jeremy?) i really like it.
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Ben Roscoe (GorillaPaws)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 321
Location: Orillia, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's cool. (I read the WHOLE thing!!)

It doesn't make that much difference to me... I'm paying the $150 for a lifelong membership, and the plan is to make donations every year on top of that, even if I never host an IFPA sanctioned Footbag event (wich is highly unlikely).

I think this does take away some of the pride of being an official IFPA member if it's free Rolling Eyes , but that's just me being selfish. I think it would be grrrrrrreat (as Tony the Tiger, himself says) to have more members. And the "vouching for" thing that Tier 2 members can do sounds like a really cool idea. The whole plan makes perfect sense... I can't understand anybody NOT voting for this.

Keep it real
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Steve Goldberg (brat)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Location: San Carlos, CA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad Kaplan (daydreaming) wrote:
I see almost no value in this change.

Heh -- I forgot to mention how ironic it is that Brad says there's no value in this change yet Brad's not an IFPA member. Why isn't Brad an IFPA member, you ask? Hmm, interesting question.

Steve
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Dyalan Govender (dyalan)
IFPA Member


Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 575
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong but the $10 fee was mostly about keeping membership a reflection of actual participation rather than a primary means of funding the ifpa. So allowing ppl to have a more limited status for free won't really affect the ifpa's fundraising capacity all that much. Furthermore as Steve has pointed out the $10 teir 1 will get you access to more than teir o anyway so its not really a valid grevience as there is an incentive to contribute, beyond the desire to contribute to the development of footbag etc.
I think this is a feasible solution to a number of problems I see in the ifpa's membership structure, and it's really heartening to see them being tackled. I particularly like the teir 0 and teir 1 differential as it will allow ausfootbag members for example to avoid having to double up on their fees by having to pay ausfootbag and the ifpa for the same sorts of services. It also looks like there is potential for club memberships and the like to be more easily implemented under this membership structure than the previous one, and I look forward to see how that pans out once this first step is settled. To me the best thing about it is that it means that the ifpa's membership fees won't be sucking funds out of local scenes and will instead be promoting local and national clubs to develop.
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Brad Kaplan (daydreaming)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Broomfield, CO, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Goldberg (brat) wrote:
Brad Kaplan (daydreaming) wrote:
I see almost no value in this change.

Heh -- I forgot to mention how ironic it is that Brad says there's no value in this change yet Brad's not an IFPA member. Why isn't Brad an IFPA member, you ask? Hmm, interesting question.

Steve


Obviously, you didn't read my entire post Steve. Too many ACT words in it for you Laughing
I have been an IFPA member for 3 years (I think) and my membership ran out at the end of February. Last time I received an e-mail reminding me to re-up. Not this time. So much for the Communications Direction of the IFPA

Steve wrote:
Tier 0 members don't have access to IFPA-member-only features of footbag.org. If you want to have a video gallery on footbag.org to which you can upload and share videos, you have to join at Tier 1 or above. That's just one example; there are more services coming over time at the Tier 1 level.


Fantastic answer Steve (somewhat sarcastically). So instead of paying $0 for the Tier 0 membership accessibility, I'll be able to pay $0 for Tier 1 membership accessibility. I get it. Confused
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Jeremy OWheel (owheelj)
IFPA Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2003
Posts: 1511
Location: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jericho Cruzado (nogoodhack) wrote:
i like it whoever proposed this (Jeremy?) i really like it.


Most the work was done by Steve Goldberg - I'm just communicating it from the board of directors to the rest of the community Smile

Brad Kaplan wrote:
I see almost no value in this change.

I like the tier membership idea, but I think the $ amounts are all wrong. What's the difference between tier 0 and 1 really? Why would I opt to be a lifetime member in tier 1 for $10 if I can be a free member anually?


Tier 0 - is like being a current footbag.org member. You can have a profile and look through the membership database as well as being a member of this forum.

Tier 1 - is like being a current IFPA member - you can upload videos and photos - vote in IFPA elections - be a member of an IFPA committee - create and use the IFPA groups function.

I think it would be accurate to say that the people who opt to be IFPA members now would see the same benifits in being a tier 1 member under the new system.

Quote:

What I see happening is a decrease in funds for the IFPA because now it's only mandatory to pay a membership fee if you want to be an event organizer of an IFPA sanctioned event, and then it's only $25.


I don't think that will be the case. In any event only a small and fairly insignificant amount of money comes from IFPA membership - as the proposal says "In its five-year history to date, the IFPA membership roster has never had more than just a few hundred members.". - So if you are correct - the amount of money lost will not really be significant - and as I've pointed out - the differences in tier types are fairly significant so I can see most people who maintain IFPA memberships at the moment to continue to pay the small fee to continue that level of membership.


Quote:

So, I didn't organize an event this year, but I paid my $10 to be a member (actually I think it's time to re-up). If this change goes through then I have no reason to sign up as a Tier 2 member unless I want to organize an event that is IFPA sanctioned (accounting for what? 3-5% of all footbag events). Even if it increases to 50% that's still not as much money as the IFPA would get through membership fees as they currently stand because only the event director has to pay $25. Frankly, I'd me more likely not to go for sanctioning unless their was more offered to my event. The biggest bonus for events is the tax exemption that sponsors get and sponsors are totally slim even with that.

I think the most important thing IFPA sanctioning does is give your event credibility - it's not just a bunch of guys getting together to see who's best at kicking a bag around - it's an official IFPA event following a set of standards etc. I also think it's important not to think about what you're personally getting out of being an IFPA member (at whatever level) but also to support the IFPA. The more people who support the IFPA the stronger it will become - and the more it will be able to achieve. I am a life member - despite the fact that there's really nothing the IFPA offers me personally that I can't get for the same price (or less) - somewhere else (apart from being involved in the IFPA obviously). I'm a life member because that seems like an excellent way of supporting the IFPA. The Australian footbag scene is in many ways very independant to the IFPA and the benifits of supporting the IFPA are probably not going to be seen here in the near future. However definitely as the IFPA grows and gets more support it will become more global and there will be benifits for Australia and other places. So I don't support the IFPA because of what I will get out of it - but rather because of what the sport will get out of it.

I also think it's important to point out this part of the proposal:

"(d) A separate donations drive collects at least the equivalent of
previously-budgeted income from memberships, as the proposed system
will all but eliminate income from memberships. In other words, with
approximately 300 new memberships each year, the IFPA generated
approximately US $3,000 of revenue per year towards its operations
under the current membership scheme. If this proposal is adopted,
IFPA will need to either generate an additional US $3,000 in
donations, or otherwise amend its operating budget to account for the
lower revenue target implied by this proposal."

So the IFPA isn't going to ratify the new changes and then just sit back and do nothing - from here there will be a seperate fundraising campaign.

So what we're aiming for is an increase in IFPA membership, an increase in IFPA participation and no loss of funds. I think as outlined in the proposal all this is definitely achievable. Gaining $3000 in a year of fundraising is not an unantainable outcome.

Quote:
So much for the Communications Direction of the IFPA


I believe that those e-mails are auto-generated. I don't know what happened but it could be in your spam email box or you may not have updated email addresses (or we may not send out those emails anymore - although I doubt it's the third option).

Anyway I hope this answers your questions.
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Brad Kaplan (daydreaming)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Broomfield, CO, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allow me to rephrase. There is obviously a value for me and others as members of the footbag community. The offer is very good when it comes to increasing IFPA membership and giving away services for free that previously had to be paid for.

However, even with your fundraising scenario the $ to the IFPA seems like it will drastically decrease and you'll have to go through the whole budget amendment stage. Fundraising for anything in footbag has never been really easy, because everyone has the best intentions of giving, but no one has $5 or $10 right now...ever.

Let's also assume that membership doubles or triples or quadruples, which I'm assuming is part of the plan, then you (rather, Steve) has the additional cost of operating and upgrading footbag.org.

It just seems to me that the IFPA is giving away a lot without solid ways to actually increase revenue. In my opinion the scope of this proposal is only to increase membership yet retain the status quo as far as finances are concerned.

Here's a question. Will the lifetime members who currently enjoy the same pleasures that everyone will be getting at the Tier 1 level get a refund since they have paid and others will not?

Obviously my thoughts are overwhelmed by the majority of people who have posted to this thread and would love to get those services for free, so I'm sure my "no" vote won't count for much. One of the things I suggest is that it should be mandatory as a fundraising effort for IFPA Event Directors to have a donation jar at each of their tournaments.
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Brad Kaplan (daydreaming)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Broomfield, CO, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and I tried to re-up my membership, but cc processing was offline.
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Steve Goldberg (brat)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Location: San Carlos, CA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad Kaplan (daydreaming) wrote:
However, even with your fundraising scenario the $ to the IFPA seems like it will drastically decrease and you'll have to go through the whole budget amendment stage.

It's interesting that you're so concerned with IFPA's budgeting and funding issues. I think if you'd read my proposal more carefully, you'd have seen that the concept here is to shift the problem of revenue (which is capped around $3-4K/year) from the players to external parties. This means seeking tax-free doncations (which IFPA has the privilege of doing, being an IRS 501(c)(3) corporation) from philanthropic organizations, corporations, and large donors (viz. myself). By comparison with IFPA's total budget, the $3-4K decrease in "revenue" is pretty much "in the noise" as we say in the engineering world. The $10 fee has pretty much proven itself to have a ceiling of around 400 takers a year, and the IFPA can't provide nearly the value to justify that cost to players today. Rather than continue to fight the constant berating of players around the world that IFPA is taking their money and giving them nothing, I say let's turn it around and make it truly a players' organization (an organization for the players and by the players, not an organization that garners revenue from players and exploits them).

Also, it's important to understand that the U.S. IRS requires that IFPA seek funding from donors and considers such separate from membership dues. If the only "revenue" (or the bulk of it) that IFPA garners for its operations comes from players, then it no longer qualifies for 501(c)(3) tax-free status, and becomes a for-profit corporation. This (as well as other issues) was what led to the "demise" of the last two attempts to do this type of thing. We feel this plan is more sustainable and forces us to focus on what is really important here.

Quote:
Fundraising for anything in footbag has never been really easy, because everyone has the best intentions of giving, but no one has $5 or $10 right now...ever.

You seem to misunderstand what is meant by "fundraising". We're not talking about switching from membership dues to voluntary donations. We're talking about taking advantage of IFPA's 501(c)(3) status to solicit large donations from large entities. For example, through the gift-matching program, I brought IFPA $6,000 this year in revenue (already more than accounting for the $3-4K "loss" from this program). That's just the tip of the iceberg. If we focus on fundraising at this level, we can bring in upwards of $50-$100,000 a year for IFPA's operations. Right now, the incremental costs associated with providing the video gallery, while growing, are more like $3,000/year.

Quote:
Let's also assume that membership doubles or triples or quadruples, which I'm assuming is part of the plan, then you (rather, Steve) has the additional cost of operating and upgrading footbag.org.

Most of the cost of footbag.org administration comes from the existing user base of over 150,000 members (who are today Tier 0 members, my proposal doesn't change that). In fact, in my proposal, we "decentralize" the administration by empowering a larger number of people (Tier 2 members) to make decisions (with oversight) and under certain conditions to use tools that cut out the middle-man (me). So, yes, I have to build tools and support the tools, but I don't have to do the work every day (at least, no more than before) to handle the users' needs.

The biggest cost I see right now continues to be the incremental cost of hosting video (both on the disk-storage side, and on the bandwidth side). We will need to address this at some point, but for the time being it still seems to be "scaling" pretty well -- perhaps the next step is to impose a quota system (which would make sense) per user, so that we can limit the total usage of the service to only "important" videos instead of just every little thing people want to throw up there. By imposing a quota, we give users/members the tools to make their own quality decisions/trade-offs.

Quote:
It just seems to me that the IFPA is giving away a lot without solid ways to actually increase revenue. In my opinion the scope of this proposal is only to increase membership yet retain the status quo as far as finances are concerned.

But that's exactly what I said in the "scope" section. We don't get enough income from $10/year membership dues to justify the complexity associated with implementing it. In fact, in my proposal the total overhead of work I and the other volunteers (and the directors )have to do goes down over time.

Quote:
Here's a question. Will the lifetime members who currently enjoy the same pleasures that everyone will be getting at the Tier 1 level get a refund since they have paid and others will not?

I recognize you probably skipped through the long, verbose proposal, but I did in fact account for that in the proposal. People who have paid money will get some commensurate additional value for the money they paid. Lifetime members who paid $150US before will get the $150US package of Tier 2 lifetime membership. That means anyone who pays $150 or more becomes a lifetime sanctioned IFPA organizer. Note that over time we can add more value to the organizer (Tier 2) membership level by giving organizers free tools, consulting, even money, to hold quality footbag events and to run quality footbag clubs/instruction/etc.

Quote:
One of the things I suggest is that it should be mandatory as a fundraising effort for IFPA Event Directors to have a donation jar at each of their tournaments.

That is a bad idea. Asking our players to fund our non-profit governing corporation is antithetical to my proposal. IFPA has formed a fundraising committee, let them do their job, and you just focus on doing yours. Smile

Steve
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Kevin Xu (xulander)



Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dunt like the $10 membership fee thing because i dunt have paypal and stuff like that...
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Steve Goldberg (brat)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Location: San Carlos, CA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kevin Xu (xulander) wrote:
i dunt like the $10 membership fee thing because i dunt have paypal and stuff like that...
It's always the Ontarians who kunt spelle. Smile

Steve
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Kevin Xu (xulander)



Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hehehe...

are there any tournaments happening near Toronto anytime soon??
i have actually never seen any in ontario...
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Brad Kaplan (daydreaming)
IFPA Member


Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 71
Location: Broomfield, CO, USA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve, you make compelling arguments at the cheap cost of my stupidity. Laughing

Is the IFPA prepared to do the additional fundraising? I know that the proposal says it is one of the necessities. Is the current team of officials the right ones for the upcoming tasks?
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