Joined: 24 Sep 2003 Posts: 64 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject:
i agreee with matti, particularly for the : at least 8 open players : you are in the level 4 (maybe 8 and at least 1 from another club).
I think that swedish open has of course his place in the level 4 competition (not only beacause of the level of players) but also because of the number of players it's a full competition with results posted reallay fast after the competition and a director who make it.
Go for HAKAN : icarus represent
Back to words i'm not sure that all the compettion could be ifpa sanctionned : first because ifpa sanctionned means that every open player has to be a member of the ifpa, i know it's importnat but it's hard to ask to a newbie to pay 10€ more (if it's a small competition there will not be an open and intermediate competition : so everybody is in single.
I will be more in adding rules like :
tournament director has to put the results within 15 days after the end of the event.
And progressively adding rules which will make it closer to the ifpa sanctionned which is really important for all of us.
I don't exactly know what rules but we can make a little checklist to agree that a competition give points or not.
For the doubles thing of course each player win half points, which can create strange things. For example this year if the first french seede player play alone, he will be best seeded than the 3rd who will plays with 4th, but it's really not very usual
Hope it will help.
Ludo
PS : hope american players can order the NA events
Joined: 18 Sep 2003 Posts: 141 Location: Moscow, -, Russia
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject:
I think we are digressing again.
Let's work on a quick fix and I am not even sure that we should do it worldwide. May be start with Europe and the add NA.
Let's do
1. Make a list of the tourneys
2. Classify them
3. Decide on how we award the points (may be what Jan created is fine if everyone agrees on it. i think it's good)
4. Satrt working on the ranking printing in the results
Grischa Tellenbach (grischa.tellenbach) IFPA Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2003 Posts: 323 Location: Paris, France
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject:
[quote="Matti Pohjola (mohkale)"]
My idea of the levels is:
Definitely Worlds as level 1.
In level 2 there should be Euros, Green Cup and Montreal.
In level 3 Finnish Open, German Open, French Open and Footjam, maybe the biggest Russian event? and some North American tournaments. The NA players probably know better what these tournaments should be but I'm guessing East Coast, US Open, Quebec and Funtastik?Level 4 all other tournaments with at least 8? open players.
[quote]
I think Matti's list is ok, just skip the NA tourneys (we can add them later)
Regarding the system I also think that there should be a difference between 3rd and 4th. more than 1/3 point(s) as stated in Jan's system.
But most important the system has to be consistent with consolation rounds played and skipped.
Joined: 11 Dec 2004 Posts: 417 Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:09 am Post subject:
here's my 2 cents on this,
Don't worry too much about trying to do an accurate ranking system. What's the point? There are too few players and not everyone goes to all the tournments. There are always gonna be players who feel they get 'under seeded' and whine and moan about it. (of course, no one ever complains about getting seeded too high)
When I was playing back in the day, tounament directors use past tournament results as a 'guide' to seeding. 'Seeding' was often done subjectively, (this is still probably true in most tournaments today). This is not the 'professional' way, but it is the most convenient way for our situation and IMO works good enough.
BTW, I didn't even know there was a new IFPA ranking system (and I am not surprised to hear Siebert said that it wasn't successful...)
But Siebert somehow correlates the lack of an effective ranking system with the lack of populartity/growth of Net. Personally, I don't see the connection.
Let's see more stuff on our '1-page' net game guide,
and a 'how-to play Net' DVD or online guide would do more to promote the sport than any ranking system.
Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 210 Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:50 am Post subject:
as there seems to be an active interest in a seeding system i think we should try to get one up and running.
1) justin, how long do you need to write a first version of that database thing?
2) once that is done we need to propose its use to the ifpa net committee
3) then we need to agree (together with the ifpa net committee) on the points for the individual level tournaments
4) then we need to make a list (together with the ifpa net committee) of all the tournaments and agree on the levels
5) then we need ONE volunteer who will be in charge of keeping the databas up to date
6) then we need to COMMUNICATE this database to the whole net community and the tournament directors.
i wuold suggest that only results that are delivered to the statistician are actually implemented in the databas. if a tournament director fails to submit his results, it's tough luck. it's not our job to start chasing results.
on the other hand we should make the use of the seeding from this databas MANDATORY for ifpa sanctioned events. in this way players will start feeling responsible that a tournament director submits the results and it won't be us having to do the bugging.
i would also suggest that part of the sanctioning process will then include the decision on the level a tournament is awarded. this will be done together with the net committee of the ifpa. and based on the number of participants expected at the tournament and the number of attendees at the previous tournament.
i am strongly opposed to setting up this system only for europe!!!!!
this thing is going to take some time, so i suggest we start working on it right now! we need a decent functional system, agree on terms we think are sensible and then propose the whole thing to the ifpa net committee.
again, first thing we need to do is set up this database thing, if we all want it.
1) justin, how long do you need to write a first version of that database thing?
say, it took 3 hours so far and is already running in test mode. i´m working on the input fields and some other basic functions that need to be bullet proof. it will hopefully be ready for your eyes by the end of the week.
Quote:
i am strongly opposed to setting up this system only for europe!!!!!
if the db is up it would be rather easy to filter euro/american players. i dont see the sense too though.
Quote:
Don't worry too much about trying to do an accurate ranking system. What's the point?
hmmm. whats the name of the thread again?
Quote:
There are too few players and not everyone goes to all the tournments. There are always gonna be players who feel they get 'under seeded' and whine and moan about it. (of course, no one ever complains about getting seeded too high)
the point is to prevent players from discussing the seeding over and over instead of starting to play. you can moan about your seeding as long as the seeding depends on the personal opinons of someone. if you go "by the book" this will not happen so likely.
Quote:
Let's see more stuff on our '1-page' net game guide,
and a 'how-to play Net' DVD or online guide would do more to promote the sport than any ranking system.
yea, someone plaese post in the sticky thread so i can stop feeling stupid about having started it.
about the dvd. this is off topic but the week in berlin after worlds i will shoot the scenes for a net-training dvd. i already informed a bunch of people but my "concept" is not yet ready to be discussed here.
Quote:
to justin : if what you need is only a web form linked to a data base i can do this easily but the hardest part of the problem is to full the database with correct informations, it will be useless to create a database with ID if we allready have a database of players like footbag.org
i still dont see your problem, ludo. if you can do it so easily: GO!
if you wish, i will fill in all the data you need. that is not the problem!
you cannot tell me, you are able to create the system we all desperately need (and talk about right here) and then tell me you wont do it, because you lack the data.
i already told you, that the data is no problem. if you cannot get all the names of your french players... well. i can give you the names of all players (including member id) that are worth seeding. plus i´ll search the forums, mail the organizers and do anything to get those numbers.
maybe we are just misunderstanding each other. but the concept i posted is so simple that it nearly hurts. its so simple that i already decided to extend it to the full capability of pooling and pairing all the brackets up to finals.
however some decisions are yet to be made and i´m glad they are discussed at the moment. but any of those things (in answer to jans question) are variables that can be changed easily.
Joined: 24 Sep 2003 Posts: 64 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:46 am Post subject:
i've to take time to work on it but i'm quite sure that i can make it easily, i've to create the database, and few forms and put it on the web. I think i'll have more time for this maybe next week (i'll post back when i'll have something to show) mail me what you've done and what you need justin i'l do my best to make something quickly.
i thought you already have something that i could use as a basis. but in this case its fine. i am working on this together with a friend (im not a programmer, im a concepter/designer).
i think its better to keep in touch personally for that type of work.
Joined: 24 Sep 2003 Posts: 64 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject:
i think so, i've worked on a database for french players a long time ago but it never end. I want pictures, videos and a lot of information which was really hard to find, in fact it was in the same time that manu start his player's page and his work was more interesting than mine so i didn't continue.
If you need help or infos on soemthing about programming just ask.
Joined: 12 Aug 2004 Posts: 190 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject:
I can help if you would like. I'm pretty solid with the DB side of things and am ok with asp.net and conceptual bits of other languages.
I wrote an access DB that does the entire ranking thing before. i can send it over if you want to see it (its lets you input events, players, ranks) and makes it look all nice, only problem is its in access 2007 beta 2. I can make it 2003 or 2002 if you want.
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