Joined: 24 Sep 2003 Posts: 64 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject:
i think all of this is a good idea but for example here in france i have started created a database with all the french players : and it's already very hard to get full name of all the players that participate to a net competition.
We do our best to organize all of this but it's already hard in the french level, manu's idea was great to put a players page in his website but i understand it was hard. I try to help him by adding name of the players that i know.
The system that justin is talking about is great but first we nedd a system to list all the net players and o add easily, we need at list 1 contributor by counrty to be able to list as much competitor as possible.
When we'll have this it will be easier to make a short soft to create a competition and to add results (which will update automaticaly the seeding)
First found someone in every country (maybe 2 persons) to add the list of all the players in his country.
I can help Grischa
Hope it will help
it's already very hard to get full name of all the players that participate to a net competition.
not really.. i´d only rank registered players anyways. if somebody signs in for a tourney he/she needs a full name, not? i think i know nearly all european open players including their full name. if the name cannot be resolved its not my cup of tea, that player will not be seeded. the least a player can do is to register at .org with a full name and a city.
Quote:
first we nedd a system to list all the net players and o add easily, we need at list 1 contributor by counrty to be able to list as much competitor as possible.
if i take the results that are available i have all the names i need. but thats another issue. the players can be added at any time. actually it was meant that way. i´m not going to type down all the people that ever participated in a net event.
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however we do this, ultimately it should be implemented in footbag.org.
ultimately yes. but at the moment it does not matter where its hosted.
i have an idea how much work it would be to integrate a db like that into the grown structures here at .org. honestly, i don´t see a chance that it can be implemented by anybody but steve himself. also it should not matter whether its here from the start or after a testing-period.
but it matters, that while seting this up, i have full control over the sql... and i doubt steve is gonna let me play with his db .
my thought was that a limited number of persons have the permission to acces the input fields and may add players and tourney and such.
ludo: tell us about it... how is it realized... i mean if you have something alike already running and your biggest poblem is to get all the players names..... any way that i can have a look at the sourceode or the actual implementation?
Joined: 07 Oct 2003 Posts: 131 Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject:
Full name problems is one good reason for doing this all with footbag.org, because here every player has a unique member id. Thus, there should never be a problem whether you mark the points David Fujimura or Fuji DJ (just an example).
Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 288 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA
Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Steve introduced me to a software called Tournament-in-a-box, that he had started writing long ago, but never had time to complete it. The idea is that the software gives tournament directors the tools to run the tournaments from start to finish. It starts by fetching pre-registration data from footbag.org, running the check-in, running the events and finally submitting results.
This is EXACTLY what we need! Anything short of web-based, start-to-finish running of footbag net tournies is a waste of time. This would standardize things, make seeding, running, and reporting brackets easier for everyone, and take all the guesswork and follow-up out of the equation.
Now, who can do it? Who is a computer programmer with about 100 hours to spend on this project? Another BIG volunteer question.
I know you guys are more interested in seeding right now, but you are really re-inventing the wheel. Ranking systems have come and gone, all dying for the same reason: too many details to manage. To move forward as a sport we need to bring everything together.
Want proof? Everyone agrees a huge reason that freestyle has taken off is their use of websites and videos to spread the sport. When was the last time the "Net Game" tab was updated? There are hidden net videos and pics on this web site, where are they?? There is good advice buried in all the IFPA and net forum crap, but it would take someone days to extract it. There is ancient seeding info buried somewhere. Blah, blah, blah.
What do we really offer someone who wants to learn this game?? A lot of work figuring out how to play and how to get equipment. Steve Goldberg has said all along that this is a community site, not just his. We need net community people to help really move us forward. Unfortunately, all I can do is blow smoke here, because I am no programmer for sure.
One other comment about seeding: I know it is a big deal to feel like you are getting "credit" for past wins, especially early in your career. But, if your goal is to win or do well in a tourny, you will have to beat the top players somewhere. One upset win and you improve your bracket position for that tournament tremendously! Focus on what you control, and the rest will take care of itself.
Joined: 07 Oct 2003 Posts: 131 Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:22 am Post subject:
Christopher Siebert (conan) wrote:
This is EXACTLY what we need! Anything short of web-based, start-to-finish running of footbag net tournies is a waste of time. This would standardize things, make seeding, running, and reporting brackets easier for everyone, and take all the guesswork and follow-up out of the equation.
Yes! I'm very happy you think exactly the same way as I do in this matter.
Christopher Siebert (conan) wrote:
Now, who can do it? Who is a computer programmer with about 100 hours to spend on this project? Another BIG volunteer question.
Indeed. I volunteered, but I see this TIB (Tournament-In-a-Box) too important to be done by one person. Of course, Steve has done loads of dirty work for it and would also help further, but he is swamped with all kinds footbag related things. (And we all do have our daily jobs as well.)
Anyway, to go with this there is a need to do decent specs for all the functionality. And no matter what, it wouldn't be ready before 'next season'.
Joined: 01 Oct 2003 Posts: 210 Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:31 am Post subject:
i don't consider it a waste of time setting up a working seeding system asap. the net scene is ever growing. people that were "only" players some years ago are now becoming active and taking an interest in the organizational aspects in the game. we will learn alot about ourselves as a net community and as individuals if we get our heads together and manage to assemble a seeding system.
the people who have now volunteered to get this thing up and running (and maintain it afterwards) will be able to give valuable input into the tournament in a box.
i know the tournament in a box would be a major step for us. but lets be realistic: it won't happen in the next 5 years because steve needs to be involved in everything and he has about 1000 projects running simultaneously. so what we need to do is set up this seeding system while at the same time continuing to push the tournament in a box.
so far i like the direction we're going. can't you, justin, start working on a database based on the excel sheet? details like how many points you get and if you get points for individual player you beat i guess will not be a problem to change later, right?
and then we need like 3 names who solemnly swear to update the database after each and every ifpa sanctionet net tournament. and work together with chard cook and john leys to decide which tournament level is awarded to which tournament.
Joined: 07 Oct 2003 Posts: 131 Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:05 am Post subject:
I have nothing against this quick fix. But could you use footbag.org (ifpa) member-ids as keys in this temporary database as well? That would save time and nerves of anyone updating the data (and would serve TIB idea in future)
Joined: 24 Sep 2003 Posts: 64 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject:
to justin : if what you need is only a web form linked to a data base i can do this easily but the hardest part of the problem is to full the database with correct informations, it will be useless to create a database with ID if we allready have a database of players like footbag.org
I will talk about this with grisha, miquel, olive, marco and niko who actually are members of the french net comitee (we'll all be in montpellier for the french champs)
Grischa Tellenbach (grischa.tellenbach) IFPA Member
Joined: 18 Sep 2003 Posts: 323 Location: Paris, France
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:39 am Post subject:
Hi all,
I agree with Jan, we should get a quick fix for this ranking problem.
1. We need people who make sure results are published on footbag.org
• Justin volunteered for Germany
• Olli can you track Finish results, if not already done?
• Jan you will be our volunteer for the one or two yearly results from Switzerland.
• Sasha could you also post all tourney results on footbag.org?
• Ludo and me will go on and post all French results.
Hence we will be responsible to have the full results from all tourneys in our countries online within 10 days after the end of each tourney.
Do you all accept this task?
2. Building the excel sheet – I suck with “programming” even within excel! The Excel sheet Ludo and me are using for French ranking has no protection at all and could be seriously damaged by mistake.
I think this database should be kept as simple as possible.
3. The BIG question for me remains to decide the level of each tourney.
Joined: 24 Sep 2003 Posts: 64 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:59 am Post subject:
i think we can make 4 levels of competitions easily :
1 worlds
2 big (euros, green cup, montreal + other north american?)
3 open (finnish open, german open, french open, east coast, other north american ?, footjam ?)
4 all other open and champs or big tourney :
russian tourneys, swedish open, german champ, finnish champ, turku, frankfurt, aachen, rnh contest, montpellier sunny jam...
I think we have to decide a minimum of players to allow a competition to give points : if 1 year we are only 8 in the sunny jam open : i think we should not score points.
I think also that czech champ or polish champ or swedish champ can't be included for now because there's not enougn players (i talk about champs not open)
For level 1, 2 or 3 i think that competitions have to be IFPA sanctionned.
For level 4 i'm not sure that it will be possible each time.
If you think about more competitions or changing level of one or another tell it here and i'll try to update the list
Joined: 24 Sep 2003 Posts: 64 Location: Montpellier, France
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:08 am Post subject:
sorry i can't edit, so we'll have to add all the competition at the end : i've forgotten: US open (3), JFK net battle (4), funtastik (?), windchill(?), quebec city (?) tenessee net (?)
Joined: 20 Sep 2003 Posts: 63 Location: Turku, Finland
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:27 am Post subject:
Quote:
i think we can make 4 levels of competitions easily :
1 worlds
2 big (euros, green cup, montreal + other north american?)
3 open (finnish open, german open, french open, east coast, other north american ?, footjam ?)
4 all other open and champs or big tourney :
russian tourneys, swedish open, german champ, finnish champ, turku, frankfurt, aachen, rnh contest, montpellier sunny jam...
My idea of the levels is:
Definitely Worlds as level 1.
In level 2 there should be Euros, Green Cup and Montreal.
In level 3 Finnish Open, German Open, French Open and Footjam, maybe the biggest Russian event? and some North American tournaments. The NA players probably know better what these tournaments should be but I'm guessing East Coast, US Open, Quebec and Funtastik?
Level 4 all other tournaments with at least 8? open players.
Quote:
I think we have to decide a minimum of players to allow a competition to give points : if 1 year we are only 8 in the sunny jam open : i think we should not score points.
I think also that czech champ or polish champ or swedish champ can't be included for now because there's not enougn players (i talk about champs not open)
I like that idea. Maybe 8 open players is enough to get points. Is it? BTW, there were 14 singles players and 8 teams in the 1st ever Swedish Open last weekend.
Quote:
For level 1, 2 or 3 i think that competitions have to be IFPA sanctionned.
For level 4 i'm not sure that it will be possible each time.
If you think about more competitions or changing level of one or another tell it here and i'll try to update the list
I think all the competitions should be IFPA sanctioned, because that keeps the standards of the competition at a certain level. For example to get the IFPA sanctioning, you have to agree to send the FULL results to the sanctioning committee. As mentioned before, I think full results are crucial.
Once we sort out each tournament's level, we should decide the points for each level.
I think this should be a given, but for doubles each PLAYER gets the points, right? Not so that each TEAM gets the points. Because people play with different partners at tournaments all the time.
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