------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu Jul 11 16:38:41 1996 To: "Sandra L. O'Connor" From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: www.footbag.com Sandra, I'm very curious about the sudden appearance of the website www.footbag.com. I am writing you because you are the contact person on that page. Who are you, and why have you chosen this generic name for your website? I can't help but be a little worried about this development, as the non-profit organization I run has been spending the last several years developing our website, Footbag WorldWide, at www.footbag.org (as opposed to ".com"), to promote the sport of footbag. Our site has become very popular and receives accolades and a reasonable amount of attention from the public. We probably should have reserved the .com version of our domain name to protect against anyone taking advantage of our reputation or confusing our clientelle. I can't keep you from using the domain name, but I have to say I'm a little unnerved that (a) you never contacted me (as webmaster of www.footbag.org) and (b) you don't refer to my website on your page (since people do frequently get confused between .org and .com and will invariably stumble on your site accidentally when they intend to go to our nonprofit site). So I'm asking the following of you: (1) Please consider giving up the domain name footbag.com and using a name more specific to your business; I would then have our non-profit pay the annual fee imposed by the NIC to keep the name footbag.com out of commission on into the future. We don't like the confusion this will cause. Please know that we are in it for the public good and that we are happy to support you in any way we can (and I mean that). (2) Please put a link to the Footbag WorldWide home page, at , prominently on your page, for those people who mistakenly find your site when they meant to come to ours. Please make sure that, in doing so, you don't misrepresent that your page is the Footbag WorldWide website. One way I can imagine achieving (1) above is for our organization to offer to host your page on our website for a reduced fee, or possibly for free, for an agreed-upon period. This is obviously negotiable. We can help set you up with any domain name you like, except www.footbag.com. This is an important matter to us, as the reputation we have built through our non-profit organization that is associated with the name footbag.org risks being exploited and/or diminished. Thank you for your attention. Please let me know if there's someone else I should be writing about this. I hope we'll be able to work together for the love of footbag. Please get back to me as soon as you can. If you need to talk in person, call me at 408-974-4878. Steven L. Goldberg, President Bay Area Footbag Foundation, Inc. A California Non-Profit Corporation http://www.footbag.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------ <> ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Aug 18, 1996 To: danceman@footbag.com From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: club listing >Foot Fencers is a small group of dedicated kickers in Willits, CA. Steve, Got your club request -- it's on my list. It'll take me a few days (up to a week or two) to get your club listing on-line; I'm terribly back-logged. It's hard to keep up. I have about 20 new requests and I'm having trouble finding the time getting them all up. I'll let you know when it's up though. Thanks. Steve P.S. I was hoping you'd put a pointer to Footbag WorldWide on your site, but so far I haven't seen anything. Can you help me out? I'll gladly link your stuff in -- is it ready? ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:23:38 -0500 To: footbag@footbag.org From: Steve Blough Subject: www.footbag.com Hello out there !!!! This is great we can e-mail all of you kickers out there ...wanted to invite you to visit our new website www.footbag.com. We want to have fun, offer good products to kickers that they can get from the retailer direct (we are not warehousing anything except our own Kickin Rags, books, etc.), to provide instruction for new kickers, and generally to develop an indepth, multifacted, approach to footbag kicking as an activity that has come of age and fits right into this new world of technology and speed. We know that footbag kicking is a great and fun way to keep fit for a person's entire liefspan. A footbag is a marvelous "pocket gymnasium". Everyone on planet earth needs to know what we know and www.footbag.com intends to tell them. We would like to hear from you about stuff you might like to see on the site that is not anywhere else and to answer questions about footbag kicking. Danceman is so busy he will not be able to answer everyone directly but will address your questions and concerns in the Footbag Crossfire column (first column coming in September) in the website. Danceman, Steve Blough, has been absolutely dedicated to footbag for 16 years, developing the Bloughchi style of kicking and refusing to get pigeonholed by anyone. He authored "Footbag Dance" in 1983, has appeared in television talk shows, featured in major newspapers, has done radio talk show interviews, represented Proton footbags in Chicago in 1986, and has many other credits, such as: school motivational programs, developed a corporate stress management program, patented the only one-paneled footbag in the game - Spyrodancer (pat.pen), and more. Footbag kicking is an age-old activity that has re-emerged in contemporary times. It is a discipline of martial arts stature that has not been given the attention, credence, or support it deserves. The netgame doesn't even scratch the surface of what Boughchi can achieve (being done right now by Danceman's students). The Kicking Rags sportswear ribbon kicker graphics show kicking circle scenarios that derive from Bloughchi. Videos are in development right now to appear in the website -- they will show the Bloughchi style. More than anything, we want kickers everywhere to know each other and to be able to reach each other AND to get the "foot" count known by all nonkickers. The Earthweb Kicking Registry will be online and available to anyone. There are millions of us who know how compelling this sport is and we need some public relations to let others know about it...we're coming of age, KICKERS UNITE !!! Stay Healthy and Keep Kicking, Wa'Kar VP of Style Advancement e-mail: info@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Aug 19, 1996 To: Steve Blough From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: www.footbag.com Steve, Great message. Just so you know, I announced your www.footbag.com site about a month ago so most people on the list were aware of it. It's great, though, for everyone to finally hear from you directly! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Aug 27 10:06:48 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 10:55:26 -600 To: brat@footbag.org Subject: www.footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Aug 27 10:08:41 1996 To: "Sandra O'Connor" From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: www.footbag.com > Sandra, I got a blank message from you. Just checking to see if you intended to send me something more! :-) If you've already resent the message, you can ignore this one... Thanks. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Aug 27 10:42:51 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Date: Tue, 27 Aug 96 11:29:30 -600 To: brat@footbag.org Subject: www.footbag.com Dear Mr. Goldberg: Steve Blough has forwarded your e-mail messages, to him, to me (I am in Taos NM currently) and has asked me to respond. Briefly, we have seen the links you have made in footbag.org to footbag.com (what's new, clubs, online column, etc.) although I did not see it in the FAQ. You have done a nice job and we appreciate it although we did not expect to see anything but the club listing, we requested, at this time-- we were still discussing how,what,and when we wanted to do anything regarding links with org. We had intended to present you with a mutual plan. However, since you have gone ahead and linked us several ways, we hereby give you retroactive permission to do so. Additionally, we do intend, as you requested,to link org to our com on the Footbag Related Directory of links that will be up soon. We will talk with you more about that when we are actually doing this section. We do have a request -- we would like you to notify us if you want to take anything from our site (especially any copywrited or trademarked graphics or text) to your site, so we can officially approve your doing so. We do not mind your using our art in your site but would like you to put a note by it that says it was created by Steven R. Blough and to always make any graphic interactive (which you did do on the foot filosophy riboon character graphic). By the way the column is, Foot Filosophy (we intentionally spelled it that way for the fun of it), not Foot Philosophy. As you can fully appreciate, having worked on your site for many years Steve tells me he learned in his phone conversation with you, we are very busy right now in this startup phase. I would guess we will be ready to put up the directory section in about four weeks and we will be contacting you then regarding a link with from your domain to ours. We appreciate the information service you offer for all footbag enthusiasts -- it has been a great help. We are, as you know, a commerical domain which offers products for sale as well as free information,instruction, and fun. That being the case, we are naturally somewhat concerned about anything going from our site to another without previous approval as our entire site is, per current copywrite law, a copywrited entity, and within the site there are trademarked and copyrited materials. Additionally, we have paying sites getting linked to us and, of course, we want to protect their pages. Again, thanks for the present links and mentions, etc. This will benefit all footbag kickers to have our sites interactive.. Sincerely, Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Aug 27 11:17:08 1996 To: "Sandra O'Connor" From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: www.footbag.com Sandra, You wrote: >However, since you have gone ahead and linked us several ways, >we hereby give you retroactive permission to do so. Are you saying that we needed permission to link to your site? I didn't realize this. I'll be sure to ask in the future. I had assumed we had permission, by the way, after my conversation with Steve. But it does seem curious -- information pointing people to your resources is a benefit that we assumed you'd appreciate. Let me clarify the goals of our non-profit organization (the World-Wide Footbag Foundation, Inc.) -- they are to provide *all* footbag organizations with a mechanism for getting their information out to the public. On the flipside, we want to make it possible for the public to find out everything there is to know about footbag, organized in a way to make it a pleasant and easy experience to find things. To that end, we constantly scan the Internet for interesting information regarding footbag, add our own editorial boilerplate, and link it in. We think of ourselves like any other Internet directory service, except that we're geared towards footbag exclusively, and we integrate all the information we can into our site. Whether or not your site is for-profit has little impact on these goals -- we will support any organization, whether for-profit or not, to suit the purposes of getting information about footbag to the public. We just try to keep our side of the links clear of commercialism, but we have no problem pointing to commercial sites. >Additionally, >we do intend, as you requested,to link org to our com on the >Footbag Related Directory of links that will be up soon. We will >talk with you more about that when we are actually doing this section. This doesn't match what I thought Steve and I agreed upon on the telephone. There is a recurring confusion between .org and .com and we've already found a lot of people out there who had links to www.footbag.com but who had called it "Footbag WorldWide" and/or had our logo and graphics pointing to your site. Clearly those people were confused, and this confusion is easy to come by given the similarity of our domain names. I'd asked Steve to rename his site "dance.footbag.com" to avoid this confusion, and to make "www.footbag.com" into a directory of footbag sites, but he declined. But I though he agreed to at least put a banner for our site on the main page (i.e., at www.footbag.com's top level) for people who arrive at his site when they really were looking for ours. The similarity in names www.footbag.org and www.footbag.com is pretty clear, and the confusion has already begun. The longer it takes you to do this simple thing, the worse the confusion will become. I don't think it's asking very much at all. >We do not mind your using our >art in your site but would like you to put a note by it that says >it was created by Steven R. Blough and to always make any graphic >interactive (which you did do on the foot filosophy riboon >character graphic). I'll take the artwork out. We cannot take the time to enforce other people's trademarks and copyrights. The law doesn't require it, so if you insist on it then we'll just remove it. Sorry about that, but we aren't in the business of keeping track of each link's trademarks and credits. It would be prohibitive for us. We thought it was a service to add your artwork to links we use to point to you -- but if it requires a credit, we just can't do it. If you'd like to give me non-copyrighted artwork for the Foot Filosophy newsletter to put on our newsletters page, feel free. (If you want to include a TM or Copyright notice in the artwork itself, that's fine.) >By the way the column is, Foot Filosophy >(we intentionally spelled it that way for the fun of it), not >Foot Philosophy. My mistake. I'll fix it soon. >That being the case, we are >naturally somewhat concerned about anything going from our site >to another without previous approval as our entire site is, per >current copywrite law, a copywrited entity, and within the site >there are trademarked and copyrited materials. Additionally, we >have paying sites getting linked to us and, of course, we want >to protect their pages. I don't understand what exactly you are telling me, but I will try to accommodate it. Just so you understand, the copyright is on the content as it is implemented on your site. We have not and will not excerpt portions of your site and take it for our own. That would clearly violate copyright law. Similarly, our site is copyrighted and we wouldn't want anyone doing that. But we would never require other sites to include a copyright tag when they point to our site, and we certainly wouldn't ask them to get our permission first. On the flipside, however, if a television program or other commercial entity was going to use our site's look-and-feel and/or detailed content for their own benefit, we'd definitely require recognition and prior approval. There's no fine line -- but an obvious distinction -- between referencing snippets of a published work and actually copying sections of it. I should hope you wouldn't truly attempt to keep people from referencing your work -- it'd only serve a self-destructive purpose. For example, the words "Foot Filosophy", while they are the title of a section within your copyrighted body of work, are not themselves copyrighted -- we are legally allowed to use them in our citation without including a copyright or trademark notice. Just because they are excerpted from your trademarked body of work doesn't mean they cannot appear anywhere else. Even if you were to trademark the words, our use of them (especially in the context where we use them) is perfectly legal. This is just an example -- I don't believe you're specifically asking us to take this out. But if I were to interpret the above paragraph literally, I think that's what it would mean. That said, the motivation and goals of our inclusion of references to your site should be obvious, and honestly it's a little disingenous of you to give us retroactive permission. >Again, thanks for the present links and mentions, etc. This will >benefit all footbag kickers to have our sites interactive.. That's what we're here for. Steve P.S. I can't help but feel that this relationship has become adversarial. Why has this developed? We are here to help you and to provide you with more resources. All we have asked from you is cooperation on lessening the confusion between our respective domain names. So far we have gotten absolutely nothing from you on this point. Why is that? ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Aug 27 18:52:21 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Organization: SLO Inc. To: brat@research.apple.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:18:34 +7200 Subject: reply to your e-mail Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org CC: danceman@footbag.com Hi Steve, I got your two e-mails. In regard to the "blank one" I do not know what that was... In regard to your response to my e-mail today: We are very sorry if you feel it is "adversarial" between us. That is certainly not what we intend this relationship to become. I feel I must make clear to you that we only want a good relationship with .org. You mention that Steve had made some arrangement with you. He did not indicate to me that he had. However, we are happy with things as they are. And, as I said, as soon as we put up a directory of footbag sites we will be in touch to get .org in it. For sure.... At this time, I would like to unequivocably state to you that we will NEVER GIVE US FOOTBAG.COM... I know this is what you wish. Steve knows this is what you wish. But, you need to just accept the fact that we have footbag.com and intend to keep it... Perhaps Steve did not share with you completely our vision of this domain. It will continue to grow, continually change, be full of graphics and contests and, we hope, give to the footbag kicker an unending source of fun, products, entertainment and interaction. We feel .org has done a good job of providing information to footbag kickers, especially as regards the net game and tournaments. However, we have a philosophical position that the net game limits a footbag kicker and that the full potential of this activity for a lifetime is not well-served by net kicking. (Although, we think it is fine if someone wants to do that). Perhaps you noticed on the site that we have a desire to give footbag kickers a viable image, clothes that reflect what they do, instruction to grow in the activity, and most of all to provied an earthwide ability for kickers to relate to one another. Please accept my apologies for giving you an adversarial feeling. Please accept the fact that we are not giving up footbag.com. Please understand that as a commercial site we are very involved with how anything from our site is used and that we are currently very happy with your additions to footbag.org. We had wanted, as I mentioned, to propose a plan to you, but this is fine as it is; however, we do insist that you give credit to Steve Blough for his art work if you use it. If you do not want to do that for some reason that is fine too. Thanks for your response. I will be in touch in about 6 weeks about linking org to our directory page. Sincerely, Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com or yahweh @laplaza.org ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Aug 27 18:52:37 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Organization: SLO Inc. To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:25:04 +7200 Subject: Re: www.footbag.com Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org Hi Steve, I made a mistake in the previous e-mail, WE WILL NEVER GIVE UP FOOTBAG.COM. I previously put we will never give "us" footbag.com. Sorry, I tried to check it but somehow sent it. Sincerely, Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com or yahweh@laplaza.org ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 27 19:05:57 1996 To: yahweh@laplaza.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: reply to your e-mail Sandra, You wrote: >... I feel I must make clear to you that we only want >a good relationship with .org. I'm very glad to hear that. I hope at this point we can wipe the slate clean. I think most of our problem has been miscommunication from both ends. >You mention that Steve had made some arrangement with >you. He did not indicate to me that he had. In our telephone conversation of a month or so ago, Steve agreed to link to my site from the home page at www.footbag.com right away. That was the most he would do for me, but I was willing to settle for that since I had no leg to stand on and was at his mercy. So I've been waiting for that to happen. >However, we are happy with things as they are. Great. But the problem is that I'm not particularly happy with things as they are. I really feel an urgent need to see you put a link to my site on www.footbag.com because of the obvious similarity in names between our sites. Now, I understand that you're going to list our site on your directory of other footbag sites, and I appreciate that -- but that doesn't really solve the problem I'm confronted with. It's the close name conflict that I'm concerned about. I believe it's vital to keep people from mistakenly accessing your site when they think it's ours. This is all I've been concerned about from the very beginning. >At this time, I would like to unequivocably state to you that >we will NEVER GIVE UP FOOTBAG.COM... > >I know this is what you wish. Steve knows this is what you >wish. But, you need to just accept the fact that we have >footbag.com and intend to keep it... Sorry, but neither of you is understanding me. (In fact, I am realizing that this e-mail thing is really not the best way for us to communicate right now... I'd love to talk one-on-one on the phone instead of through e-mail. If you like, I'd be very happy to have you call me collect at 408-974-4878 to talk about this and anything else when issues arise. Or if you'd like to give me your phone number, I can do the same.) I am not asking you to give up anything. Here's what I've been asking from the get-go: First and foremost, I've been asking for a link to my site on your www.footbag.com home page -- something that I'd been assuming was coming ever since I first talked to Steve about it. Second, and as a "druther" if I could have mine, I am asking you to work with me to help overcome any future problems that may arise out of the similarity of our names -- and because www.footbag.org has been around for a much longer time, I'm asking you to do the changing since your name isn't already that well known. One plan I proposed (but not the only possible one, by the way), is for you to create a new site called "dance.footbag.com" (still within your footbag.com domain) and to make that the site you currently call "www.footbag.com". Then I'm asking you to make the page at "www.footbag.com" (which you still own -- please understand that!) your index of footbag sites. I'm just asking for a MINOR reorganization to accommodate the similarity in names of our sites. There are many other ways to do this. And to reiterate, I asked Steve to do this as early as possible so that you wouldn't get your site confused with ours (which I believe is to both of our disadvantages -- most importantly since your site is for profit and ours is nonprofit). Any solution that ends up with a link to the Footbag WorldWide site somewhere prominent on your main page at www.footbag.com is ALL I'M ASKING! >Perhaps Steve did not share with you completely our vision >of this domain. It will continue to grow, continually change, >be full of graphics and contests and, we hope, give to the >footbag kicker an unending source of fun, products, entertainment >and interaction. I understand the ideas -- I have no problem with it and in fact I think it sounds awesome. I am happy about it, am happy to support it, and don't know how I can drive that point home any better. And I'm happy with you owning the "footbag.com" domain. It's only the web page at the one default address -- "http://www.footbag.com/" that I'm concerned about! Because people easily confuse this with "http://www.footbag.org/", I'm trying to ask you to help resolve this problem by making that page clearly indicate that there are multiple choices. The actual URL is not as important as long as you have links to the correct one and make sure you're listed properly in indexes. And I've offered again and again (both in my original e-mail and in my conversation with Steve) to do all the legwork for you to make this easier so you won't have too much work to do. In other words, I will donate my time to you to help update index listings, and anything else you need, to help make this change. I don't see why you think this is a bad thing. I think, honestly, that Steve simply didn't understand all the terminology and issues at the time I called him, and misunderstood me and my motives and intentions (and most importantly, what I was asking). It's nothing personal, but the internet is a big and complex thing and he was just starting to get into it when I called him. >We feel .org has done a good job of providing information >to footbag kickers, especially as regards the net game and >tournaments. However, we have a philosophical position >that the net game limits a footbag kicker and that the full >potential of this activity for a lifetime is not well-served by >net kicking. (Although, we think it is fine if someone wants >to do that). And as I told Steve, I am *all for* what you're trying to do. I am not trying to stop you or to make any problems for you -- on the contrary, my motivation is to see you succeed! But you are making problems for me and I am just asking you to understand that and to work with me, even to the smallest degree. I keep getting the impression that this message is not getting through. >Please accept my apologies for giving you an adversarial feeling. Thanks for saying that -- it's good to hear. >Please accept the fact that we are not giving up footbag.com. And you please understand that I'm not asking you to give up anything. >Please understand that as a commercial site >we are very involved with how anything from our site is used >and that we are currently very happy with your additions to >footbag.org. We had wanted, as I mentioned, to propose a >plan to you, but this is fine as it is; Steve and I agreed that we would trade links. I held up my end of the bargain, multiple-fold. But even if we hadn't made an agreement, I would've linked to your site. It's in the charter of our non-profit to do so. I don't understand why you were expecting me to wait for a proposal -- I am not holding anything above your heads. I am just doing what I told Steve I would do, which is a natural outcropping of the goals of our corporate charter. I don't hold grudges nor treat any of the information on our site as bargaining chips. >however, we do insist that >you give credit to Steve Blough for his art work if you use it. >If you do not want to do that for some reason that is fine too. I'm still confused. A small snapshot of T-shirt art that is just a window onto your site is only beneficial to you, and doesn't serve any particular interests to us. We have absolutely no interest in having such artwork on our site if this stokes an adversarial relationship. I don't understand why you don't trust us to help you provide gateways into your site from our already very-well-established site (with over 60,000 accesses per month). The thumbnail of the artwork that I included is tiny, barely decipherable, and anyone clicking on it will go directly to Steve's site where they can find a larger version of it that's visible and fully credited. But, like I said before, if that's the way you folks want to play it, we will err on the side of being more cautious and simply removing the things you might find offensive as we've implemented them. Consider the artwork gone. (Too bad for you, honestly. And as I said before, of course we'll put any artwork up there you like as long as you don't *require* us to also add any text to go along with it.) Sorry to end on that note. Thanks very much for taking the time to write me and for trying to iron these issues out. I believe we can work together in an amicable and productive way. Feel free to write back -- it seems like each message is going a long way towards getting us on the same wavelength and communicating better, so I'm happy to continue if necessary. Either way, a response to the main point I made here would be very much appreciated. Thanks again. I hope to hear from you soon. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 28 11:05:57 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Organization: SLO Inc. To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:52:37 +7200 Subject: Re: reply to your e-mail Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org CC: danceman@footbag.com I am in receipt of your most recent e-mail. We understand you and we want to have the URL www.footbag.com. We do not want to reorganize anything. We want to have footbag people type in www.footbg.com. In regard to links. It is my impression from Steve Blough that he told you he would consider linking our sites. Be that as it may -- if you would consider putting a link on your home page to our site we might consider a link on our home page to your site. I will ask Steve what he thinks about this. Our intention was to put all footbag related links in a directory. We will be in touch in regard to this link, reciprocal, thing. I do not know why you find it so difficult to put: " Art by Steve Blough" if you use a graphic but if you want to just take it out and never use any other ones then we agree to this and will expect this to be the case. If you change your mind, please let us know and we will decide whether or not we want any of our grpahics put into your (or anyone's) site. So, we recind our statement you could use the graphics since you do not want to give credit to Steve. The ribbon figures he has created are art -- regardless it they are on sports clothes or a wall. He has other art that will be coming out and I guess this is best because we never really intended for anyone to use our art/graphics ever -- there will be such a proviso on the homepage shortly and the column "Foot Filosophy" is now trademarked as well (all the columns will be anchored to the page when the new columns come up) and we see no reason, really, for you to put them in your domain. Actually, the bottom line is this. We are considering, at this time to have links, reciprocally, to each other's home pages and will notify you of our decision. We really do not want anyone using our art/graphics, or anything else. If we want to put text somewhere we know how (discussion groups, etc.). We know that having interactive links on your site is a help and we appreciate your work there, but we have our own policies and agendas to sort out before we suddenly do such. All we really intended when we submitted the club listing was to do just that -- list a club. You seem overly concerned about people getting to .org -- you have submitted thoroughly and are all over the web. I am sure all the footbag kickers out there that have visited your site know full well about you and new ones will too if they do searches. If seems that we are at the disadvantage here. Your skills are obviously great in the computer/HTML/internet field and we recognize all the work you have done and have no intention of hurting you -- we simply want the URL we have, www.footbag.com. That is what we wanted and what we got. We have not asked you to change your URL just because it might cause us some difficulties and are at a loss as to why you would ask us to change. Since you are non-profit and we are clearly commercial, it seems to us, that things are as they should be. There really is no reason for a phone conversation; however, in the next few weeks we will be contacting you about the homepage link trade. We're not ready to address that just now as we have priority issues to decide first. We are operating a business: a storefront on the commercial part of the web. I think you need to fully address that we have very different orientations but we still are both enthusiastic about forwarding the activity of footbag kicking. We do not think the way your site thinks, we have other agendas... Have you ever run a business? There is a lot involved: a business plan, equipment, employees, expenses, and income. You do not have to bother with this and I think you do not realize we are deeply involved in doing something far different from footbag.org. There is no reason for either of us to worry... I hope this provides some clarification. Sincerely, Sandra O'Connor ------------------------------------------------------------ To: yahweh@laplaza.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: reply to your e-mail Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 12:30:37 +0800 Sandra, Thanks for the response. You wrote: >Be that as it may -- if you would consider putting a link on your >home page to our site we might consider a link on our home page >to your site. I will ask Steve what he thinks about this. Of course I'd do that if that would help. Haven't I been clear enough? >I do not know why you find it so difficult to put: " Art by Steve >Blough" if you use a graphic but if you want to just take it >out and never use any other ones then we agree to this and >will expect this to be the case. We don't want to put it in because there is no specific place for it -- and we already have his name on the line associated with the link. >So, we >recind our statement you could use the graphics since you >do not want to give credit to Steve. You seem to think you're somehow in control of whether or not I link to your site. You don't have any control over this type of thing. I've taken the graphic off. So let it rest. You don't need to recind or allow anything -- please let's get down to a more friendly level. This pseudo-official giving of permission is getting very annoying -- this is what I meant by "adversarial". You have no reason to be so formal with us and all it does is set up a context of confrontation. >...the column "Foot Filosophy" is now >trademarked as well (all the columns will be anchored to the >page when the new columns come up) and we see no reason, >really, for you to put them in your domain Okay, now I'm seeing another serious communication problem. I *really* think we do need a phone conversation. This is getting out of hand very quickly. I thought we were reaching understanding, but the above paragraph is clearly indicative that we're not. We are a directory service, like Yahoo or Lycos, but we're organized differently and we deal only with footbag. That is our entire purpose. Can't you see that it makes sense for us to link to your site, just as we link to all the other footbag-related sites we know about? And *please* don't tell me you haven't benefitted from our work -- from the rec.sport.footbag newsgroup to the footbag@footbag.org mailing list to all of the club listings we already have on www.footbag.org. >Actually, the bottom line is this. We are considering, at this >time to have links, reciprocally, to each other's home pages and >will notify you of our decision. This is *ALL* I've been asking, and what I swear Steve and I already agreed to. Please consider it soon. Thank you. >We really do not want anyone >using our art/graphics, or anything else. If we want to put text >somewhere we know how (discussion groups, etc.). This is a very negative attitude, and very confusing to me. We aren't "using" anything of yours! We are simply POINTING TO YOUR SITE. Are you telling me that you want to be in the Yahoo and Lycos indices, but not on the Footbag WorldWide index?! This is VERY CONFUSING. I think we need to talk on the phone. Why are you being so negative? I am starting to get very concerned about the way this conversation has turned. >We know that having interactive links on your site is a help >and we appreciate your work there, but we have our own >policies and agendas to sort out before we suddenly do such. >All we really intended when we submitted the club listing was >to do just that -- list a club. Your club listing request had nothing to do with the other links we made to your site. We accept club listings from anyone, anytime; it is automated for the most part. The other links we made to your site were part of our normal function as an index service. >You seem overly concerned about people getting to .org Here is the point, one more time: I am concerned about people CONFUSING .org with .com. It is in both of our interests to see that this confusion is minimized. You seem unwilling to agree with this. It is SIMPLE: "www.footbag.org" and "www.footbag.com" are very close names, and people can confuse them! I've already seen real-life examples on the internet where that's true. People have already accidentally pointed to your site but called it "Footbag WorldWide"! PLEASE understand that all I've been asking, over and over again, is for you to help me minimize this confusion by putting a link to my site on your home page! (Ideally, I'd like you to use my banner graphic as well.) I will definitely do the same if you require!!!!! Why is this becoming so complicated?! >There really is no reason for a phone conversation; Au contraire. >Have you ever run a >business? There is a lot involved: a business plan, equipment, >employees, expenses, and income. Of course I have and please don't talk down to me. I am the president of the non-profit corporation, a private consultant, I have a Master's Degree in Computer Science from Stanford University, and I have been around the block a few times! And if you want to know the truth, the FIRST thing you should be doing is creating STRATEGIC ALLIANCES with existing organizations, be they non-profit or not. You are losing a potentially very strong ally in my person. I don't see why you are taking such an adversarial stance with me. This has reached a ridiculous point. I thought I was a nice guy helping link your site into our index. You're making me feel very bad about it. >You do not have to bother >with this and I think you do not realize we are deeply involved >in doing something far different from footbag.org. There is >no reason for either of us to worry... For goodness' sake, for the last time, I *am* bothered by the closeness of our domain names and I'm just asking you to help me avert future problems by putting a link to my site on your home page! I will do the same. >I hope this provides some clarification. Yes, and it worries me to no end... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 28 13:33:57 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Organization: SLO Inc. To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:19:47 +7200 Subject: Re: reply to your e-mail Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org CC: danceman@footbag.com We are under the impression that copywrited material does have to be permitted to appear in other places -- we have a rather good understanding of this. I, personnaly, do not want to talk down to you, nor up to you. Frankly, I find you to be the problem in this relationship. Your first e-mail to me said: "Who are you?" I about fell off my chair...and thought, "Who are you?" to be so blantantly offensive. I do not want to argue with you, apease you, make you angry, make you happy, or anything else. We are busy and we will let you know if we want homepage links when we are ready to do so. Your Master's and your other credentials do not phase me in the least. I am glad to hear you have run a business so you will stop spending so much time e-mailing...relax. You answered my question that you would reciprocate with a homepage link. That is good. Please be aware there is absolutely no way on earth you can control me or this site and I do not wish to control yours only to make sure what you take from ours is properly credited. Chill out .... I really do not think your manner in writing is friendly but pushy and assumptive of you as some sort of last recourse about what is and what is not on the internet regarding footbag and absolutely unwilling to accept "NO, we will not give up www.footbag.com." I wonder how all the people you relate with would like to know how you are hammering us about this...? We have already had plenty of response saying how great it is to have anything on the net about footbag. You are not a monopoly or a dictator and I am tired of discussing this. When we decide to link on homepages or not we will contact you. Oh, by the way, Lycos, Yahoo, et al, have not taken any of our graphics so far as I know. And, of course, we want to be represented in your site and feel your site should be represented in ours -- we are just not yet sure how that should be and will let you know what we think and you can then respond. In the meantime, things will remain the same. Also, I clearly have said that linked to .org is beneficial to us and we have appreciated what you have done EXCEPT for not wanting to give Steve credit for his art. Again, relax, chill out, kick a bag around...you are obviously really stressed out. If we hear from someone who wants .org we will surely let them know how to find you. With regards, Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com PS I really do not want to re-read my e-mails within yours back to me -- I have a brain and it serves no purpose to use this tactic and consumes valuable time. Please stop that. In fact, please stop any contact for awhile and let us decide what we want to do, O'k? ----------------------------------------------------------- To: yahweh@laplaza.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: reply to your e-mail Date: Wed Aug 28 13:42:56 1996 Cc: danceman@footbag.com Sandra, You wrote: >We are under the impression that copywrited material does >have to be permitted to appear in other places -- we have a >rather good understanding of this. For the last time, and I promise this will be, we have not violated any of your copyrights, nor will we ever. I'd really appreciate it if you would just stop writing as if we have. >I, personnaly, do not want to talk down to you, nor up to you. >Frankly, I find you to be the problem in this relationship. The problem here may be that Steve Blough has told you I was some kind of control freak and that I wanted you to give up www.footbag.com. But that is untrue -- I DO NOT WANT YOU TO GIVE UP www.footbag.com and if you don't believe that after I've said it four times, I don't know what else to do. >Your first e-mail to me said: "Who are you?" I about fell off >my chair...and thought, "Who are you?" to be so blantantly >offensive. I was asking you a simple question -- I saw the website, there was absolutely no information identifying you or your site, and I clicked blindly on the mailto: link and wrote you asking who you were! I explained myself pretty well, I thought. I reiterate: you had no identifying information on the site and I had no idea at the time who you were. It really was an honest question! >Your Master's and your other credentials do not phase me >in the least. I was just answering your question about whether or not I'd run a business. >Please be aware there is absolutely no way on earth you >can control me or this site and I do not wish to control yours >only to make sure what you take from ours is properly >credited. I HAVEN'T AND WON'T EVER TAKE ANYTHING FROM YOUR SITE. Pointing to your site is a service to you and is not actually taking anything off. Why are you making this a negative? Help me understand, please. >Chill out .... I really do not think your manner in writing is >friendly but pushy and assumptive of you as some sort of >last recourse about what is and what is not on the internet >regarding footbag That's why I want to talk to you on the phone. >and absolutely unwilling to accept "NO, >we will not give up www.footbag.com." WHAT?!?!?! You are not hearing me. I do not want you to give up anything! I just want you to add a link to my site! That's all! Well -- I also want you to stop accusing me of trademark and copyright violation and to realize I'm a nice guy who's just gotten off on the wrong foot with you. >I wonder how all >the people you relate with would like to know how you are >hammering us about this...? We have already had plenty >of response saying how great it is to have anything on the >net about footbag. You are not a monopoly or a dictator and >I am tired of discussing this. I am not trying to control anything, or to dictate anything. And I certainly am not looking for a monopoly. This is clearly a communication problem. We are just tryiing to protect our good name, while at the same time fostering other organizations such as your own. How could this be a monopoly? I am just asking you, over and over and over again, to please (PLEASE) put a copy of my banner somewhere on your home page with a link to my site as soon as possible. It's a REQUEST! I still don't see where I've shown you any attempt of mine to control anything! I think Steve is confused about my motives, who I am, and what is going on here, and has influenced you on this point as well. >Again, relax, chill out, kick a bag around...you are obviously >really stressed out. Yes, you are stressing me out because you're not hearing much of what I'm saying. It is truly stressful and you're right, I need to chill out. >PS I really do not want to re-read my e-mails within yours >back to me -- I have a brain and it serves no purpose to use >this tactic and consumes valuable time. This is not a tactic. It is courteous and standard practice in e-mail! Many, many people do it -- it's an easy way to respond to the various points in an e-mail message without having to refer back to it in your own words. My mail program automatically puts a quoted version of your message into my outgoing message window for me to edit and put in my comments (that's how common it is). I actually wish you'd use this technique with me so I can see which parts you're referring to in your replies. >In fact, please stop any contact for awhile and let us decide >what we want to do, O'k? After this message, yes, you can believe that contact will cease until something changes. You have been clearly unwilling to cooperate with me, despite my best efforts, and there has been little constructive about our discussions. Clearly at this point the best thing for me to do is give up in my attempt to create any kind of amicable working relationship with you, and to let you think what you will of me even though you're completely off-base. I have a hard time letting you hate me, though. I care, believe it or not, what others think of me and I'm utterly offended at the way you and Steve have treated me. I still love you both, and footbag, too. Your friend in footbag, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 28 16:32:46 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Organization: SLO Inc. To: brat@footbag.org Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:19:33 +7200 Subject: www.footbag.com - your last message Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org CC: danceman@footbag.com No one hates you! We will be in touch when it is time. Sandra ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 21:11:00 -0500 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" From: Steve Blough Subject: Link Steve, As requested we have put a link to Footbag.org on our home page with your logo. We would like a link on your home page with our logo (yellow circle with footbag.com across it) in a similar location. Thanks. Steve Blough ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Sep 03 22:42:21 1996 To: Steve Blough From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: Link Steve (and Sandra) You wrote: >As requested we have put a link to Footbag.org on our home page with your logo. >We would like a link on your home page with our logo (yellow circle with >footbag.com across it) in a similar location. Thanks. Thank you very much! I have done the same on our .org page -- tell me if you like it (it was hard to get the logo to size down properly but I think it works). I appreciate your quick response. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Sep 04 07:34:10 1996 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 07:30:50 -0500 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" From: Steve Blough Subject: Link Steve; I recieved your E-mail. I would like to see the logo about 20% bigger as its difficult to read. I tend to believe that people look around on the net and are not (are you in the right place syndrone) type logic. When I search for something I'm interested in finding any and all info. I don't think are you in the right place is needed. A simple link to www.footbag.com is fine. Thanks, S.Blough ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Sep 04 08:16:41 1996 To: Steve Blough From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: Link Steve, You wrote: >I would like to see the logo >about 20% bigger as its difficult to read. Good point. I made it bigger and it's now much clearer. >I tend to believe that people look around on the net >and are not (are you in the right place syndrone) type >logic. Sometimes that is true; and for that reason we have links to your site at least three places on ours. But my whole issue all along has been that our respective site names are very similar and that people might confuse them; I wanted to address that possible confusion on our respective home page. Either way, I've just changed our link to you to take out the "not in the right place" question. I hope you like it more now. Actually, I'd really like it if you said just a few words more on your page where you link to our site, instead of just having the link out of context. (I don't really mind what you say, as long as you add something to your site where you use our logo to indicate that it's another site, different from yours -- which is basically what I've said on ours for your link). Thanks again! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri Sep 06 10:14:50 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Organization: SLO Inc. To: brat@research.apple.com Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:02:09 +7200 Subject: links Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org CC: danceman@footbag.com Dear Steve: In discussion with Steve Blough we have decided that it is important that you eliminate all text in regard to our link on footbag.org's homepage. Please simply put the logo and "click here". No need to editorialize and we do not plan to editorialize on .org by our homepage link to it. Please take ALL the text off and leave the link as indicated above, which is how we put your link on our homepage, in two days or we will assume you have decided not to trade links and will eliminate the .org link from our homepage. This is not negotiable, Steve, and I will not respond to any commmunication. This is all we want right now. Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ To: yahweh@laplaza.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: links Sandra, You write: >In discussion with Steve Blough we have decided that it is >important that you eliminate all text in regard to our link on >footbag.org's homepage. I can't help but wonder why every little thing I do seems to offend you in some way. I have put the text surrounding your link on my site with no editorial bias or negative implication. I simply don't understand what problem you have with it. >Please simply put the logo and "click here". No need to >editorialize I think it is confusing to have a link with no comment at all explaining why it's there. All the other links on my site have comments, why not yours?! >and we do not plan to editorialize on .org by >our homepage link to it. Actually, I'd *prefer* that you editorialize! I would much rather my link on your page have *some* information explaining why it's there so that people don't think that your site is mine. The whole point of this discussion, from the very beginning, was to clarify to both of our clientelle, not confuse. >in two >days or we will assume you have decided not to trade links >and will eliminate the .org link from our homepage. What?! I ask you for a link two months ago and it finally comes, and now you're giving ME an ultimatum of two days, non-negotiable? Where are you coming from? I *don't understand* this. My site gets around 65,000 accesses per month. Yours averages around 200. You tell me -- which is the more valuable? A link from my site to yours or one from yours to mine? If you feel you must, then take my link off your site (though I'd prefer you wouldn't) -- I will not be pressured any further. It is confusing and inconsistent to put links without explanations and I simply will not do it. Regardless, at this point, I will continue to point to you because I promised I would. You can do what you will -- I just hope you choose to do the right thing for the sake of any constructive future between us. Please choose the right path. I have said all I can. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri Sep 06 20:28:21 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Organization: SLO Inc. To: brat@footbag.org Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:12:23 +7200 Subject: links and text Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org CC: danceman@footbag.com www.footbag.com has policies, moral and ethical constructs, and a philosophy which, apparently, www.footbag.org does not embrace. Steve Blough has no desire to write text (editorialize) about your site and does not appreciate your desire to do this about his site. Since you refuse to accept mutual links on homepages, without text, and deprecate out site as having little value, we will do as you suggest and take your link off our homepage. (I must note, however, "methinks thou dost protest too much.") We have no interest in continuing a useless dialogue with someone who attempts to control everything and cannot compromise. One of the positive accomplishments which non-competitive footbag kicking promotes is cooperative interaction as opposed to "beating" the opponent. Social interaction of a positive nature can take place through e-mail but all we have have had from you is typical of a net game of e-mails. The concept of "the opponent" is very evident in your attacks, verbal misrepresentations, constant berating and continual harrassment. The competitive game approach sounds out loud and clear in your e-mails. You do not seem to comprehend real cooperation so we will exit this circle of (nonproductive) interaction now. Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com P.S. your numbers re .org are unsupported and your numbers re .com (homepage up three weeks when counting began) are incorrect. ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Sep 09 08:24:41 1996 To: yahweh@laplaza.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Another try Sandra, I think I've made a change that you and Steve will be happy with. Please look at http://www.footbag.org/ at let me know if this is an acceptable usage of your logo and link. I think you'll like it. If not, I'm open to other ideas. I believe this represents a reasonable compromise; if you disagree, please understand that I am trying, and let's continue to work it out. Thank you very much for your patience. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 08:19:11 -0500 To: footbag@footbag.org From: Steve Blough Subject: disscusion group This is our second e-mail to you all. We have had some odd e-mails come to us--apparently, there is some e-mail going to you all and others who can be accessed through the footbag.org site. We have no listings of people with the e-mails as yet and are not responsible for this apparent barrage that is going on. Please realize that we have only sent 2 e-mails generally and several to spacific persons in response to their e-mails. We hope you all like footbbag.com. We are getting ready to change the "foot filosophy" column and to add the corporate stress management sections. Both Danceman and the webmaster for this site have full time other jobs which are not in the computer industry and we are developing this as we are able. There have been some questions about this being a commercial site. Yes, it is. We hope to offer more and more products for the kickers to give them an identity, as well as offer instruction in the form of books, columns, videos, etc. We also want to have fun and feel that footbag is a socially oriented, activity which encourages each kicker to set his own standard and break that over and over. We do not have access to state of the are equipment and technology but we have some good support, a pentium computer now and have invested about $10,000.00 in the site so far. We are not rich or have any endowments wo we are offering what we can to kickers and see nothing wrong with suggestion that everyone pay their own way... It is our sincere hope that this clears up the problem that has developed from footbag.org developers communication in a fashion that implies footbag.com is somehow hasseling everyone. This is our first general e-mail to everyone since the first one two months ago-- any other e-mails you have rceived (except for a few sent by Danceman) are not generated by us and we do not wish to clutter up the net with unnecessary stuff. We love to hear form you but in no way wish to do a "barrage", a tactic we know about and one we will never do. Thanks for so many e-mails of support and for the few who are angry with us for some reason, we openly want to say we love kicking a footbag and we want to offer you art, clothing, instruction, etc. to continue your development -- and that fun. Seems we have to go through this to get to the fun but we're on the way. Watch for the "foot Fencers of the New Frontier" comic strip -- a $5 membership in the Earthweb Kicking Registry will get you your private password for the continuing series. Our own Danceman is also an accomplished professional artist, that is why we are able to bring you the Kicking Rags line of kicking sportswear and why we are able to do a comic strip. He loves it, almost as much as kicking!!! Kick on Fencers, and above all protect your portal! From the folks at footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Oct 09 09:55:54 1996 To: Steve Blough From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: disscusion group Steve, We're in the process of moving the footbag discussion group to a new server -- it will be up any day. One "feature" of the new software that we're using is that it automatically rejects mail from anyone who is not already a member of the discussion group. During this transition period, I'm managing things manually, and noticed that you're not on the list! For some reason, I thought you were already a member of the group -- I was surprised to see that you aren't. Until this point, I had rarely seen the group membership list since the it has been managed by Jim Curtis (jcurtis@cup.hp.com). So I'm writing you for three reasons: (1) to explain (above) that your message was delayed being posted -- I'm going to manually post it for you now; (2) to ask you to join the list so that you can post to it in the future (once we switch over, e-mail will automatically be rejected if you're not a member of the discussion group) -- this way, you can keep up with the rest of the discussions and reply messages to your messages which apparently you have not received thus far; (3) to BEG you to join the list since obviously this has been a source of much confusion. In the e-mail you just sent out, you imply that some nefarious process has been taking place behind the scenes. The fact is that I and others have openly discussed your site and various issues surrounding it; I had no reason to keep our discussions a secret. I assumed you read the message(s) about it that were sent to the list! Now it is apparent that you had no idea that we were openly discussing your site on the list. I really had no idea you weren't on the list -- I would've directly cc'ed you on the message that I sent to the whole list a while back that concerned your site. I assumed after I saw your first posting that you were a member of the list. I'm very sorry for this confusion. I really wish we could make amends and get along. Clearly you feel that people are angry at you, but this is simply untrue. People were asking me what your site was all about, and why there was no mention of "established" footbag on the site, and I told them what I knew at the time. Please just join the list now, and perhaps we can avoid further confusion in the future. (When you post to the list, many people don't reply directly to you, but rather send their replies to the list. Sometimes, a new discussion will start up; if you're not on the list, you won't know about it. Everyone assumes that someone posting to the list is also a member of the list.) Thanks very much for your patience. By the way, I'm still waiting to hear if you are happy with the last change I made on footbag.org to point to your site. Please let me know if there's any problem with it. I believe it is a good compromise; perhaps no news is good news? :-) Thanks again. Steve P.S. Oh -- I forgot to tell you. To join the list, you can either just send me e-mail directly, or send mail to footbag-request@footbag.org with the word "subscribe" on the subject line. If you want to get a daily "digest" that combines all the e-mail from that day into a single message (instead of getting each message as it's sent), say "subscribe digest" on the subject line. Many people find the digest easier to handle; but it's got a built-in delay since you have to wait until midnight (or something like that) to get the all the previous day's e-mail... See you (hopefully) on the list! ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat Oct 12 10:35:55 1996 From: "Sandra O'Connor" Organization: SLO Inc. To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 11:18:01 +7200 Subject: Re: Another try Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org CC: danceman@footbag.com Dear Steve, I just got my messages from my old mailbox (I have two now and was offline for about 6 weeks) and I was VERY HAPPY to get your message of 9/10/96 (another try) which I have forwarded to Steve Blough today. Sorry, I did not respond earlier...it was a to the point mesage and very nice. What you did was well accepted (danceman told me about it and that is why we kept the .org link active). Wish I had gotten the message sooner. Sincerely, Sandra you can still use the "yahweh" address apparently -- having 2 mailboxes is new to me and it is really so easy...we are learning as we go. Currently, danceman gets all the online footbag.com e-mail, trying to split it out now. ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat Oct 12 10:46:27 1996 To: yahweh@laplaza.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: Another try Sandra, Thank you for the very nice message. I'm glad to know that you were happy with the change! I'd also like to thank you and Steve for leaving the link on the .com site. Let me know how I can help you folks in the future. As I said in the beginning, I'm here to help you, not to get in your way. All I can say is that I'm sorry for the misunderstandings -- I hope we can put it all behind us. Good luck catching up on your yahweh mailbox -- I know how it is. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat Dec 28 17:32:23 1996 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:45:23 -0600 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" From: Steve Blough Subject: Re: Footbag World Magazine misprint... Hi Steve, On Monday we will have the appropriate mailbox created and then forward whatever we get to you...okay? We have to have our host set up the mailbox and then as we administer the site ourselves and do not know what else to do, just learning, we will simply forward any e-mails that come for you, to you. Hope your travels are safe and sound. Sincerely, Sandra ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Feb 25 21:29:13 1997 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:52:22 -0600 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" From: Steven Blough Subject: Re: disscusion group WE would love to have those copies we never got and requested. Thanks. Please send to danceman@footbag.com Steve Blough At 09:55 AM 10/9/96 -0700, you wrote: >Steve, > >We're in the process of moving the footbag discussion group to a new server >-- it will be up any day. One "feature" of the new software that we're >using is that it automatically rejects mail from anyone who is not already >a member of the discussion group. > >During this transition period, I'm managing things manually, and noticed >that you're not on the list! For some reason, I thought you were already a >member of the group -- I was surprised to see that you aren't. Until this >point, I had rarely seen the group membership list since the it has been >managed by Jim Curtis (jcurtis@cup.hp.com). > >So I'm writing you for three reasons: > > (1) to explain (above) that your message was delayed being posted -- I'm > going to manually post it for you now; > > (2) to ask you to join the list so that you can post to it in the future > (once we switch over, e-mail will automatically be rejected if you're > not a member of the discussion group) -- this way, you can keep up > with the rest of the discussions and reply messages to your messages > which apparently you have not received thus far; > > (3) to BEG you to join the list since obviously this has been a source > of much confusion. In the e-mail you just sent out, you > imply that some nefarious process has been taking place behind > the scenes. The fact is that I and others have openly discussed > your site and various issues surrounding it; I had no reason to > keep our discussions a secret. I assumed you read the message(s) > about it that were sent to the list! > Now it is apparent that you had no idea that we were openly > discussing your site on the list. > I really had no idea you weren't on the list -- I would've directly > cc'ed you on the message that I sent to the whole list a while back > that concerned your site. I assumed after I saw your first posting > that you were a member of the list. I'm very sorry for this > confusion. I really wish we could make amends and get along. > Clearly you feel that people are angry at you, but > this is simply untrue. People were asking me what your site was > all about, and why there was no mention of "established" footbag > on the site, and I told them what I knew at the time. Please just > join the list now, and perhaps we can avoid further confusion > in the future. (When you post to the list, many people don't reply > directly to you, but rather send their replies to the list. > Sometimes, a new discussion will start up; if you're not on the > list, you won't know about it. Everyone assumes that someone > posting to the list is also a member of the list.) > >Thanks very much for your patience. By the way, I'm still waiting to hear >if you are happy with the last change I made on footbag.org to point to >your site. Please let me know if there's any problem with it. I believe >it is a good compromise; perhaps no news is good news? :-) > >Thanks again. > > Steve > >P.S. Oh -- I forgot to tell you. To join the list, you can either just >send me e-mail directly, or send mail to footbag-request@footbag.org with >the word "subscribe" on the subject line. If you want to get a daily >"digest" that combines all the e-mail from that day into a single message >(instead of getting each message as it's sent), say "subscribe digest" on >the subject line. Many people find the digest easier to handle; but it's >got a built-in delay since you have to wait until midnight (or something >like that) to get the all the previous day's e-mail... See you (hopefully) >on the list! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue Feb 25 22:58:47 1997 To: Steven Blough From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: disscusion group Hi, Steve. You wrote: >We would love to have those copies we never got and requested. I'm not sure what copies you're talking about. If you're referring to the message I wrote you asking if you'd like to join the footbag e-mail list, I'll be happy to add you... Are you saying you want on the list? Just let me know. For more info, see http://www.footbag.org/discussion.html Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Feb 26 08:43:33 1997 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:37:29 -0600 To: "Steven L. Goldberg" From: Steven Blough Subject: Re: disscusion group At 10:58 PM 2/25/97 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, Steve. > >You wrote: >>We would love to have those copies we never got and requested. > >I'm not sure what copies you're talking about. If you're referring to the >message I wrote you asking if you'd like to join the footbag e-mail list, >I'll be happy to add you... Are you saying you want on the list? Just let >me know. > >For more info, see http://www.footbag.org/discussion.html > > Steve > > > > We're talking about copies of all those e-mails that went back and forth about www.footbag.com that we were never privy to -- it would be instructional to know what people thought, at least the people you e-mailed regarding the site. Surely, you have a data abase with all the e-mails and the period in time would be just prior to the message you sent us which was in the e-mail we sent to you yesterday. Then, we will know what was said, and not be in the position of having people talk behind our back...and, we requested themn then, right after that e-mail to us mentioned above which stated you were sorry we did not receive them and that you did not know we hadn't. Thanks, Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Feb 26 09:48:34 1997 To: Sandra O'Connor From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: disscusion group Hi, Sandra. Thanks for clarifying your earlier message: >We're talking about copies of all those e-mails that went back and forth >about www.footbag.com that we were never privy to Geez.. I had no idea you were asking for those messages -- sorry if I didn't understand that. But there really weren't that many (maybe 3 or 4 including my original message that started the discussion), and I don't have copies of old e-mail from the list (I get far too much e-mail to save all my mail). I do save my outgoing mail, and so I have the message I sent to the list that started the discussion -- I'll include it at the end of this message. The new system I referred to in my earlier message (which is now up and running) does keep "archives" on the server, but I didn't get that running until after the note I sent you, and I don't believe there was any discussion relating to you guys after that. But honestly, I don't have time to pour through the messages and find them if there were any -- there's a lot of e-mail on the footbag list! It's a very active e-mail discussion list. That's why I asked you just to join it so you could be involved yourselves. But for goodness' sake, Sandra, it's been a long time since all that, and at this point I thought things were going well between us -- I'd really rather not dwell in the past. I sent that e-mail message to Steve in response to some specific accusations you or he made; at this point can't we just get on with things? It's probably not the best idea to go back and start resending each other portions of an earlier argument we had, which was eventually resolved! Such things are out of context and certainly not constructive. (Your resending me my old message asking Steve to join the list was an example of this. If you want to join the list, great, but let's not dredge up old arguments, please!) I guess what I'm saying is that I am not up for another argument with you. Whatever I can do for you, I will do. I'm always ready to help if you just ask for it. I hope things are going well with your site. I certainly don't want to be a thorn in your side and I hope you've seen the proof of that in the way things have gone over the last few months. >and, we >requested themn then, right after that e-mail to us mentioned above which >stated you were sorry we did not receive them and that you did not know we >hadn't. I never received such a request (until yesterday). But back to my original point, if you would like to join the list, please do so. The information is on-line or you can just write me back and I'll add you. It's not very active this week, but you never know when it'll get active again. There are three lists -- announcements, footbag discussion, and freestyle discussion (i.e., moves & judging system). You can join any or all. The info is at http://www.footbag.org/discussion.html Steve P.S. Here is the only message I sent to the list regarding your site -- it was dated JULY, 1996. Please realize that this message was sent before I had talked to you folks very much -- so it does not reflect the results of our discussions that came afterwards. From what I remember, some folks went off and looked at your site after I sent the note and wrote back to the list saying they wondered why your site was seeming to be slanted against competitive footbag. I didn't paticipate in that conversation, which as I said was only 3-4 messages. But either way, it was what you might expect from a group mostly composed of competitive players... I guess some folks just took offense at it, but it's not your fault or problem since you have every right to convey whatever message you want on your own website! That's why I never reentered that discussion and it quickly died off. As far as I know, nobody sent any other messages to the list regarding your site after that. But apparently a few sent messages directly to you. So I think you've already seen most of those opinions... ---- begin forwarded message: Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 12:59:04 -0700 To: footbag@footbag.org From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: www.footbag.COM -- everyone PLEASE read Hey, folks. This is an informational message that I hope everyone will read in detail. It's short (for one of my messages, anyway!): There is a new site coming up on the Web called "www.footbag.com". (Notice that it ends in .com instead of .org.) The new site is actually just being created now, so going there will probably not be interesting to you yet. The people who are creating it are Steve Blough (many of you know him) and his associates. They are looking to create an alternative footbag information website. I think the new site will add a great amount of information, and more variety, to the footbag resources on-line, and I am very happy about it. Steve is an accomplished artist, so the site should be visually quite appealing -- feel free to give him feedback and let him know what you think once he's got the site up (probably next week). For the record, I am always happy to see new footbag information resources come on the net, and I will do everything I can to support them. (So don't be afraid to start your own. I will help however I can.) However, I would like to point out to everyone that www.footbag.com is not part of Footbag WorldWide (www.footbag.org). It would help a lot if, in the future, you can all be very careful when you give out the address of Footbag WorldWide. I've seen people make the mistake before of calling our website www.footbag.com -- but that is wrong. Now that someone else is using it, this is more of an issue. So, please remember, the URL for Footbag WorldWide is: http://www.footbag.ORG [The "org" stands for "non-profit organization", where the "com" stands for "commercial entity". I never thought to seize the .com version of our domain name, and so someone else has grabbed it. At least they're footbag players and not some major corporation looking to exploit us all! :-)] Thanks for listening. Steve ---- end forwarded message. ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Feb 26 10:43:16 1997 From: "Steve Blough" To: "Steven L. Goldberg" Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:29:05 +0000 Subject: Re: disscusion group Reply-to: www.footbag.com@chelsea.compuweb.com Steve, Am in receipt of your e-mail with the attachment. I am wondering why you characterize my request as "starting an argument"? No such intended. Thanks, Sandra ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Feb 26 10:48:59 1997 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: "Steven L. Goldberg" Subject: Re: disscusion group Sandra, You wrote: >I am wondering why you characterize my request as "starting an >argument"? No such intended. Good to know! It just seemed like that e-mail message, which I sent a long time ago while we were arguing, should've died along with the argument... I wasn't sure why you dredged it up again.. Sorry for being hypersensitive but as I said I really want to forget all that and get on with life!! By the way, congrats on the latest version of your site. It looks nice. I like the idea of simplifying your home page, although I wish my link was still at the top level for people who get there accidentally, but I won't argue over it! :-) Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun May 11 15:33:31 1997 Return-Path: From: "Steve Blough" To: brat@footbag.org Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:00:20 +0000 Subject: link Hi Steve, Just a note to request that you take our link off the footbag.org site. The reason for this is that we feel our respective philosophies about kicking a footbag are diametrically opposed and we really think what .org and .com stand for is too different to support links. Also, our policy now directs that we only link freestyle kickers' personal pages to footbag.com. Thank you, Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun May 11 22:41:06 1997 To: www.footbag.com@chelsea.compuweb.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: link Cc: webmaster@footbag.com Bcc: X-Attachments: Message-Id: Sandra, You wrote: >Just a note to request that you take our link off the footbag.org >site. I can't for the life of me understand why. I've been thinking about it. I've looked all through my site. I've tried to understand what could be wrong with me linking to you. And I just don't see it. Please if you have a minute explain to me if I've done something (else) to offend you. Why wouldn't you want me to point to your site? Is there something I don't know? >The reason for this is that we feel our respective >philosophies about kicking a footbag are diametrically opposed Our philosophies shouldn't come into play! I'm not advocating anything on my site. My site is an INFORMATION site. Its (nonprofit) goal is to LINK UP people who have interest in footbag. We allow just about anyone to create a page on our site to publicize their footbag clubs or events. We don't ask them what their "philosophy" is before we allow them on... We just ask that the contact information be correct. You represent a particular group of people who have a particular style of play, and it's part of my goal to link you into the service. This is what I've been telling you from the beginning. I've tried to be as unbiased and fair as I could. Yes, on my site I have some recommendations, and the amount of content relating to certain things may be more than others because I have an interest in them and have time to develop them. But there is plenty of room for links to sites like yours from my site. I don't see how our different philosophies should be an issue. >we really think what .org and .com stand for is too different to >support links. I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say. Do you have some other notion than I do as to what a "link" means? It's just a reference to your site from mine. Do you want me to take all references to your site off? Do you want me to remove the Foot Fencers footbag club listing from my club list? And why do the sites have to be the same to link each other? Isn't it better if they aren't the same? Isn't it better that we're not competing directly? I'm not selling anything. You are. Where's the harm in you linking to me? Where's the harm in me linking you? This is very confusing to me. >Also, our policy now directs that we only link >freestyle kickers' personal pages to footbag.com. You can do whatever you want. Whatever policy you come up with inside your site is your business. I'm definitely tired of walking on pins and needles and trying to prove to you that I'm here as your friend and want to collaborate with you and help you however I can. If you don't believe me, that's fine (but you'd be wrong). If you want to take my link off your site that's fine, too (but that would be wrong, too). But I'm not taking the link to you off my site, because people have a right to know you're there. I feel obligated to be fair and keep you on my site. I don't see how you could take offense at that. If what you're saying is that you don't want to reciprocate and link back to me, then so be it. I don't need for you to link to me if it's going to be the constant cause of irritation. I wish you all the best. Steve P.S. I lost my job, by the way, so I'm currently unemployed and reasonably depressed, as well as anxious about my upcoming tournament at Stanford. I've been up two nights in a row trying to get the T-shirt art ready, and then there's the little matter of a 20-page program that I have to edit and take to the printers in the next two days. Then of course there are all the high school demos and all the other little tasks that have to get done before the event. So I hope you can appreciate that your note didn't exactly come at the best time. So please bear with me. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon May 12 10:12:10 1997 From: "Steve Blough" To: Steve Goldberg Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:05:49 +0000 Subject: Re: link Reply-to: www.footbag.com@chelsea.compuweb.com Hi Steve, Briefly, 1. Yes, we know what a link is and we do not want to be linked to .org. 2. If you cannot respect our wishes, then we withdraw our permission to use our logo in any link. 3. No, the Foot Fencers in Willits should not be de-linked -- they are a club and not footbag.com 4. Although you say you are not advocating any philosophy is seems clear to us that you are, and we admit we are definitely advocating something in particular: freestyle kicking beyond the juggling kicking that tournaments promote. 5. We have never been offended by anything except your unwillingness to observe our wishes about our domain footbag.com. 6. Com is also an INFORMATION site and the information we are sending is diametrically opposed to 99% of the information org is sending out to the world. 7. We are sorry you have current personal difficulties - everyone does, some are much worse that what you are experiencing (most of which sounds like fun: making programs, designing t-shirts -- we could make up Kicking Rags in a mass order for you if you would like to order them from us). 8. The FOOTMART in org is selling lots of stuff and someone somewhere is making lots of money...we notice all orders go through them and not directly to the manufacturer. Our offerings are few and they have the approval of our freestyle guru Steve Blough -- we stand behind them all. Thanks for your offer of "help" repeatedly but we do not really feel we need any help and besides as per your own exclamation you are very, very busy. We are going to send you a copy of an e-mail that will give you an idea of how important what we advocate is to kickers. Watch for it soon. Sincerely, Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon May 12 10:59:06 1997 From: "Steve Blough" To: brat@footbag.org Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:29:22 +0000 Subject: copy of e-mail Reply-to: www.footbag.com@chelsea.compuweb.com Steve, Here is the copy of the e-mail content my webmaster promised you: Dateline: North Dakota, March 25, 1997 "Quite exciting to read this (sic. footbag.com). It seems our clan of footbagers had also developed this method of freestyle about eight years ago. In North Dakota there is virtually no contact with the so-called outside world, so our styles developed naturally toward this system which we called the Dance. Intriguing synchronicity don't you think?" "We have since had a diaspora of sorts, but when we were in force we would preferrably play at night, after ten or so, and meet under a well-lit sheltered entryway of a university building called ...The playing space was prime: a circular enclosure of about 20 feet in diameter with a very shallow grade to it, exposed to the night air on the sides, and with a flat umbrella-like roof containing a single halogen light in the center about 20 feet above our heads. This enclosure allowed us freedom for vertical and horizontal movement with leaping and spinning and also sped up the game like vertical racquetball when we chose to sky the hack off the ceiling. We would usually play until three or four in the morning. Overall, the Dance is the most intense, fulfilling experience I ever put my mind, body, and soul towards. To date we have had but two (in eight years) accidents of collision with each other, due in great part to a highly developed kinesthetic awareness." "Juggling is dead. Long live the Dance!" Steve, this is what we are about at footbag.com. Steve Blough danceman@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon May 12 16:21:36 1997 From: "Steve Blough" To: Steve Goldberg Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:57:51 +0000 Subject: Re: link Reply-to: www.footbag.com@chelsea.compuweb.com Steve, I am the one who requested Sandra to ask you to take our link off .org. We do disagree and you do have a philosphy which comes through loud and clear in .org just as mine does in .com. Please read the current Foot Filosophy column (about the state of freestyle) that I wrote. I would also like for you to distribute it to all the rules committee members and I will be glad to field questions from them as well as from you. Once you read this freestyle column perhaps we can get on an intellectual level regarding the questions I bring up instead of all the rhetoric you type out in response to any contact from us. The same people who make the tournament rules sit on your board and are the same power group who have been trying for years to control footbag kicking. The fact that you are putting on the Stanford Tournament is proof that you support what the rules committee is doing and, therefore, have an agenda pertaining to tournaments and their rules which shows through, loud and clearly, in footbag.org. We now have and continue to compile a large e-mail list. I plan to e-mail to our distribution list the Foot Filosophy paper about the freestyle competition problems and request that kickers everywhere ask all of you, "Why are you scoring freestyle like you do?" The next Foot Filosophy column will address the problems with the current net game. Then I will write columns giving historic data on the development of the net game, tournaments, and the changes in freestyle rules. These will all be sent to our distribution list. So, Steve I would like to stop the rhetoric and your accusatory manner in dealing with any problems we have, and instead address the very real issues in the footbag community which have their genesis in the rules committee. Steve Blough danceman@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon May 12 10:58:51 1997 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: link You write: >2. If you cannot respect our wishes, then we withdraw our permission >to use our logo in any link. I don't need your permission to link to your site. I never have. >3. No, the Foot Fencers in Willits should not be de-linked -- they >are a club and not footbag.com I was clarifying because the address is @.com and I wanted to make sure you weren't asking me to remove everything that refers to .com -- I wasn't going to remove anything, by the way, so the point is moot. >4. Although you say you are not advocating any philosophy is seems >clear to us that you are Then you are completely wrong and it is your problem that you do not see the benefit in working with me. How could I be so kind to you and treat all my links to you with the utmost of care if I wasn't trying to allow you (and anyone else) to advocate their positions freely? You seem to have gone through my site, followed all the links, and gotten confused as to which parts were *mine* and which parts were not. (Further fodder for my theory that you don't know what a link is. You don't seem to be able to tell which things are on www.footbag.org and which things are merely linked from it.) My service is just a collection of links and information. 90% of it is club listings, event listings, contributed photos, and links to other sites. There is very little advocacy going on. Yes, I editorialize in some places, but that's my prerogative and as long as I'm fair it doesn't mean that I'm "advocating a philosophy." You and anyone else has always had an open door to putting your own information on my site. I have told you this REPEATEDLY. If you choose not to believe it and not to use my service to your benefit, then it is by your choice and not by my censorship or philosophical orientation. >5. We have never been offended by anything except your unwillingness >to observe our wishes about our domain footbag.com. I have always done my best to educate you about the (sometimes wrong) decisions you are making, and to support you and your wishes as best I could. Do not blame me for trying to smooth over our relationship which got off to a rocky start. I have done everything you have asked me to do, so your claim that I am unwilling to observe your wishes is bunk. You are the one who has been belligerent, defensive, and negative throughout this past year. All I have EVER asked is that you link to my site. And it was a REQUEST, not a demand. Since then, all the arguments we have had were the result of either miscommunication or outright accusations by you which were entirely unfounded and hurtful. >8. The FOOTMART in org is selling lots of stuff and someone >somewhere is making lots of money... You are showing your ignorance (again) about what a link is. There is no such catalog on footbag.org. The World Footbag Association runs FootMART; it is its OWN internet entity -- just like footbag.com -- and while they are linked from my site, they are NOT on footbag.org. They are on worldfootbag.com. I should not be held responsible for every site I link to. It is entirely clear to me that you have no idea what the Internet really is, and what a "link" is. For your information, I also link to Flying Clipper's home page (flyingclipper.com) who sell the Juice footbag; I link to the adidas home page (adidasfootbag.com) for their own point of presence on the web; and I would link to any other footbag-related site, regardless of its philosophy or profit-making status, if I found out about them. (I also link to the "United Schwa Awareness Foundation For Life", by the way, which is pretty much as "fringe" as you can get relative to the mainstream of this sport. I am not just here to serve the mainstream.) My site is basically a DIRECTORY SERVICE for INFORMATION about FOOTBAG. So please get that straight in your head and stop being so mean to me for trying to provide a free public service. I DO NOT MAKE ANY MONEY ON THIS. PERIOD. And www.footbag.org is entirely operated by me (and overseen by a board of directors) as a completely voluntary effort. Why do you have so much trouble believing this? You make it sound like I'm involved in some kind of grand conspiracy to take over the world through my website. Sentences like the one you wrote (I'll paraphrase: "someone somewhere is making lots of money ...") are clear indications of your paranoia -- nobody has lied about who is making what money. The WFA is honest and up-front about their business; the order form for FootMART clearly says "World Footbag Association, Steamboat Springs, Colorado" and their mailing address and phone number are all over the site. And for the record, they probably only receive about 5 orders a week through their website (not a lot; certainly not enough to make a living). All my links to them were carefully thought out (as were my links to you). There are probably the same number of links to both of you from my site. And how can you confuse WFA with me!? I am an unemployed computer scientist from Silicon Valley who is also a footbag enthusiast and have created a website as a public service; I DO NOT MAKE MONEY FROM FOOTBAG.ORG!!!!!!! (Nobody does.)). Footbag.ORG is owned and operated by the California Tax-Exempt Nonprofit Corporation called "Bay Area Footbag Foundation, Inc." which also operates under the name "World-Wide Footbag Foundation, Inc.". Go look us up in Sacramento if you don't believe me. We are a state-certified non-profit organization. Please let us be the nice people we are trying to be. Our articles of incorporation are on-line at . The only thing we have ever sold were footbag net sets that JimmyC donated labor to build as a fund-raiser for our group; and we have never sold them on-line. The only income we get is from this type of activity, and it goes to directly support our operations. I have never received a salary (although I'm certainly entitled to one), because my goals are to benefit the sport, not to make money from it. >we notice all orders go through >them and not directly to the manufacturer. They are an independent retailer and there is nothing wrong with them operating their retail business on the web. Why are you so confused about this? Manufacturers have used retailers for as long as anyone can remember. All of the companies that WFA sells products for are *happy* that their products are available from the WFA's online catalog! Nobody is being hurt! You don't "notice" anything; you mostly miss the point and proclaim evil conspiracies that just aren't there. >Thanks for your offer of "help" repeatedly but we do not really feel >we need any help and besides as per your own exclamation you are >very, very busy. I will most definitely reconsider ever helping you again. >We are going to send you a copy of an e-mail that >will give you an idea of how important what we advocate is to >kickers. Watch for it soon. Please feel free to e-mail me whatever you like. Steve P.S. The return address in your e-mail messages to me is not working. You may want to check your settings. The correct return address should be "webmaster@footbag.com" but it's coming through as "www.footbag.com@chelsea.compuweb.com". Just so you know. Not that I'm trying to help you -- God forbid I should do that again. ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon May 12 11:06:51 1997 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: copy of e-mail You quote: >"Juggling is dead. Long live the Dance!" > >Steve, this is what we are about at footbag.com. That's great. I know exactly what you guys are about and I'm still happy to have you linked from my site. I see no discordance here. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue May 13 00:24:11 1997 To: danceman@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: link Steve, you wrote: >Please read the current Foot Filosophy column (about the state of >freestyle) that I wrote. If what you say in your column is true, then why am I so insistent on linking to you? What do I gain from this? It is because of me that most of your target audience has found your site. (Why don't you ask your webmaster to run the "referrer log report" to see how many hits have come to your site from footbag.org as opposed to other sites and I think you'll see what I mean.) But for the record, here are some factual errors in your column mixed with my own reaction to some of the stuff you say there: (1) You use the word "WFA" to mean just about everyone in the world except for yourself. The WFA is not a rules body, nor does it have much of a hand in "controlling" the sport. They are a for-profit company, just like any other, who try to make a living from footbag by publishing a mail-order catalog, a magazine, and by doing school tours. That's their niche -- let them have it and get your facts straight. Agree with their philosophy or not, but don't make them the scapegoats for the issues you have. Yes, they are definitely imperfect and make mistakes. But they simply are not responsible for all of the stuff you accuse them of -- if anyone is responsible, it's the collective community of footbag players who attend tournaments and who form a network of friends around the US, Canada, and yes even other countries. The organization you should attack when you refer to rules and sanctioning is the IFAB. And all of the e-mail and phone numbers for current IFAB members are publically available on the IFAB website at http://ifab.footbag.org More importantly, if you don't like the IFAB rules, then don't play by them. Nobody is forcing anyone to conform to IFAB rules in order to be accepted. My website mentions IFAB in several places, but my club list, for example, doesn't ask you to fill out any application proving your IFAB-worthiness. That would be ridiculous. Anyone can submit photos or videos to be added to the site; there's no question "are you an IFAB believer?" that they have to answer before we'll put the data up. Also, you can hold your own tournament any time you want -- or even just a class or festival -- and have it listed on my event list, without having to get IFAB sanctioning. You can just ignore IFAB if you don't agree with their guidelines. And if another sanctioning body were to be created, you could bet I'd add their information to my site as well! IFAB just exists for people who *want* to play by their rules. If nobody wants to play by their rules, then IFAB will go away, as it should be. But for now, there is a critical mass of players (myself included) who enjoy playing the sport using their rules. (2) I most *certainly* am not a mouthpiece of the WFA. I took it upon myself to set up a website on footbag quite a few years ago because I saw a dirth of information on footbag. There is no ego or power trip involved here. But I am not ashamed to say that I hope for respect for the time I have spent on my website (and you are certainly giving me none, in public nor in private). I hope for thanks from people like you for creating a way for you to get to a larger audience. And I hope for love from fellow footbaggers for my devotion and passion for creating a conduit for information flow about all aspects of footbag (including Footbag Dance). Your assertion that the WFA uses www.footbag.org as its mouthpiece is absurd. First of all, I created the website long before the WFA even understood the Internet and how it might fit into their plans. Secondly, I have not always been on the best terms with them, although things are going well now (I have told them honestly where I had issues with the way they did things, and they have been honest back, and we are now communicating much better; though we still have some work to do to improve our relationship). Thirdly, there is really only one guy that runs the WFA so let's stop using the term WFA and just call him by name: Bruce Guettich. Bruce is a human being. And I'm most certainly *not* beholden to him. I have never answered to anyone but myself. Give me a little credit, please. (3) There is LOTS of room in this world for more than one sport, and for more than one culture within a single sport. Yes, my website is generally angled towards the IFAB rules, and I definitely see what you are saying there. But it's not like anything I do is designed to be hurtful of you or your goals. That's exactly why I want to link to you. I want to be fair. I want people to know that there are several different cultures out there. My particular culture I cannot help -- I will not argue with you about my personal interests. Yes, I love the sport the way I play it. But no, unlike you, I'm not trying to stop anyone from playing the sport however they want to. Afford me my space and I'll afford you yours. I don't see why you have this all-or-nothing approach to this issue. We can all live together and coexist and overlap where it makes sense and not overlap where it doesn't make sense. If you believe there are conspiracies and evil at work, fine, feel free to support that position. My point is I won't try to stop you. So please understand that I'm not here to hurt you, but your words (private and public) certainly hurt me. (4) There is no conspiracy to keep freestyle from being free. There are many players who play in many different styles. It's no more your right than it is mine to dictate what people should and shouldn't be exposed to. If you think your way is good, that's great, you keep doing it and promoting it your way, and I'll keep doing it and promoting it my way (by teaching one-on-one, facilitating communication on the internet, setting up events, working on TV coverage, etc.). There is room for both of our philosophies. Don't make this "us" versus "them". I know that your passion is honest and good. And the passion and excitement you see from me in all the time I spend on my website is honest; it's a true expression of my interest. There's nothing evil about that. There's nothing dishonest about it. I won't condemn you so why should you condemn me? And publically, to boot? I have never condemned you publically, but your article specifically states that I opened a barrage of e-mails against your website, refusing to let you see what I wrote behind your back. You are clearly operating in an unhealthy, paranoid mode. It is only hurtful and negative. Why not try a more constructive approach? (5) If there are things about the current IFAB rules that you don't like, there is a mechanism in place to make changes to it. Instead of hiding in a corner and arguing in practical privacy on your website, why not take part in the e-mail discussions on the list I provide, of which all IFAB members who have e-mail are a part? Why not actually advocate your position instead of just complaining and bashing those of us who are just trying to make an honest attempt at pursuing our passion? For example, you say there is not an IFAB-sanctioned event under the "freestyle" label that promotes kicking and fluidity of motion over stalling (juggling). Well, I could beg to differ but you'd probably find fault with my argument (see "Ranked-Component Judging System" under the IFAB freestyle rules online; the word "adds" is never mentioned once.). Instead, why don't you come up with a format and propose it to the IFAB as a new event? If you have already done this, forgive me -- I'm coming into this late in the game. As I told you on the phone, I really only got into the organizational side of footbag about 5 years ago. But if you've decided that there is no way to merge our two directions (i.e., the "IFAB" mindset and the "Bloughchi" mindset), then FINE. Let's at least live in detente. Let's agree to disagree, but not ignore nor bash each other. We cannot lie to ourselves that the other does not exist, and it does neither of us any good to publically berate the other. Linking our websites to one another seems like a good start at building that bridge, even if we our communities remain entirely disjoint. (I'm sure a lot of folks who would be drawn to your website will visit my site and be disappointed. So that's why I'd like to have a link that points them to yours so they can see that they're not at a dead end! The same works the other way, too.) Thanks for reading this far. Excuse my verbosity. :-) Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon Sep 22 11:56:56 1997 To: "'Steve Blough'" From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Are you there? (willits) Hello? Did you receiving my last e-mail? This is my second message requesting that you please reply right away to let me know if you're still there! I am updating my club list on Footbag WorldWide and need to know if the contact information and other stuff I have for you is still valid. PLEASE just reply right now and let me know if you're there; be sure to remind me of your club ID (which is 'willits' when you reply. If you have time, then please first go look at your club listing, at: http://www.footbag.org/clublist/willits and update it if necessary (your password is '<>', without the quotation marks!) by clicking the "update" button near the end of your listing. Either way *please* reply to this message, letting me know if you're still there! I need this information within a week, or I will have to delete your listing (sorry, nothing personal, but there are too many defunct listings for me to keep track of everything). I really want this service to be reliable to the general public as a way of finding footbag players in their area. So I need to keep the listing up to date. Please reply to me right away; even if you don't have time to go and look at your listing. Just let me know if you're still there. If you want me to delete your club listing because you're no longer playing, please let me know. Thanks. Steve P.S. Excuse me if you have already replied, but for one reason or another I need you to reply again because I evidently don't know you did. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Sep 24 10:40:31 1997 From: "Steve Blough" To: Steve Goldberg Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 06:54:06 +0000 Subject: Re: Are you there? (willits) Hi Steve, We haven't replied because, as I am sure you have heard, Steve has been recovering from radiation and surgery due to cancer diagnosed in January. There are still a few active members and Steve still kicks on Sunday. I haven't the time to look at the listing right now, but I will try to in the near future. We do want to keep the listing active. Thanks, Heather Blough ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Sep 24 10:44:37 1997 To: danceman@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: Are you there? (willits) Heather, You wrote: >We haven't replied because, as I am sure you have heard, Steve has >been recovering from radiation and surgery due to cancer diagnosed in >January. Just so you know, all my requests are automated, so I hadn't actually looked at any of the names/contact information yet to see who they were. Yes, I know Steve's recovering and I hope he's doing well -- please send him my best. >We do want to keep the listing active. Yes, of course, I will leave the listing active. Thanks for replying. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu Apr 23 08:40:29 1998 From: "Sandra L. O'Connor" Organization: none To: Steve Goldberg Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:54:14 -0700 Subject: Re: (Fwd) tounament info Reply-to: yahweh@laplaza.org CC: danceman@footbag.com Hi Steve, Glad to hear you got work -- bet you love working for EXCITE but am sure it is busy, busy, busy. I forwarded you email to Steve Blough as well, maybe he will write to you. I did notice your new look and it is really very nice. The smaller and more compact home page is definitely the way to go. We have thought of using frames but have decided against it for various reasons. Best wishes, Sandy O'Connor ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun Oct 01 11:31:28 2000 Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:59:19 -0700 From: Membership Service To: danceman@Footbag.COM Cc: members@footbag.org Subject: Your new account on footbag.org! Welcome to footbag.org! You now have an account on our service, which makes you an official member of the Footbag Community, anchored at http://www.footbag.org/ Here are the essentials of your membership -- I recommend you save this message for future reference. Keep it someplace safe, on your hard drive, so that it doesn't get scavenged by your mail system at some later date. ----- Log in at: http://www.footbag.org/members/home Your footbag.org Member ID: 11983 Your footbag.org Alias: danceman Your footbag.org Password: <> ----- As a member, you get the following benefits, with more coming in the future. PLAYER BENEFITS: - Other players can find you. Simply supply relevant info in your member profile, such as your city, club affiliation, and/or interests. - You can find other players (by searching -- a members-only function of the website) - For official IFC-sanctioned events, your scores will be reported and tracked so that you can get your competition history in a flash at any time (service beginning January, 2000) - You can add your own "tips" and comments to the online freestyle move list. (Similarly for net training tools that will hopefully be available soon.) GENERAL BENEFITS: - You get your own "@footbag.org" alias! This means that you can get our service as a "redirector" for your incoming e-mail. You can set up an "alias" in your personal member profile, e.g., your-alias@footbag.org, that will automatically forward your e-mail to the primary e-mail address associated with your account. - You can add and update your own club listing without waiting for administrator approval. (However, footbag.org does reserve the right to remove or change the content of club listings that violate the acceptable terms of use, in a policy to be published at a later date.) - You can add and update events on the Event List without waiting for admiinistrator approval. (Same caveat applies as above.) Note: official IFC sanctioning is still required if you expect to use the seeding and scoring systems under development.) - You can update your mailing address, phone number(s), and e-mail address yourself, in one central place, eliminating the need to update it in the club list, event list, and with each individual tournament director and footbag organization. *NOTE: we have a very strict policy on the use of your private contact information. This will be spelled out in a later policy statement, but we will not sell or give away our member information for any reason that you have no explicitly agreed to. This is the core of our function as a non-profit organization, and we will not violate the privacy of our membership. So please do not be timid about giving your full mailing address and contact information on your member profile. Mark it as private if you do not want other members finding it. Either way, we are careful not to allow non-members to view your public information in list form. Again, there is more to come. Please go explore your new account and our website at http://www.footbag.org/ Thanks, and stay in touch. Steve Goldberg, President World-Wide Footbag Foundation (A Non-Profit Corporation) ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu Aug 03 19:12:07 2000 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Hi Hey, long time no talk to. How are things? I just realized as much as our domain names are similar would it be okay if you gave me a redirect so that mail to brat@footbag.com goes to brat@footbag.org? I'd really appreciate it since people have on occasion made this confusion (including today). Thanks! Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat Aug 05 08:37:49 2000 From: webmaster@footbag.com To: Steve Goldberg Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 08:23:06 -0600 Subject: Re: Hi CC: danceman@footbag.com On 3 Aug 2000, at 19:12, Steve Goldberg wrote: > Hey, long time no talk to. How are things? Things are fine. > > I just realized as much as our domain names are similar would it be > okay if you gave me a redirect so that mail to brat@footbag.com goes > to brat@footbag.org? I'd really appreciate it since people have on > occasion made this confusion (including today). I get all strange footbag.com mail and I have not had any for you for more than three years. But if I get any, I will forward them to you. > > Thanks! Your welcome. > > Steve > Sandra O'Connor Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat Aug 05 08:39:16 2000 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: Hi >I get all strange footbag.com mail and I have not had any for you for >more than three years. But if I get any, I will forward them to you. Sandra, the kind of stuff I'm talking about you may not even realize is for me. Can you not please just set up an alias for me where mail to "brat@footbag.com" gets automatically sent to brat@footbag.org? I'd *really* appreciate it. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun Aug 06 09:29:16 2000 From: webmaster@footbag.com To: Steve Goldberg Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 08:09:57 -0600 Subject: Re: Hi On 5 Aug 2000, at 8:39, Steve Goldberg wrote: > >I get all strange footbag.com mail and I have not had any for you for > >more than three years. But if I get any, I will forward them to you. Explain how I could not see it is email addressed to you, please. Sandra > Sandra, the kind of stuff I'm talking about you may not even realize > is for me. Can you not please just set up an alias for me where mail > to "brat@footbag.com" gets automatically sent to brat@footbag.org? > I'd *really* appreciate it. > > Steve > Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sun Aug 06 09:41:20 2000 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: Hi >Explain how I could not see it is email addressed to you, please. >Sandra Sandra, my request was simple and there's no need to me mean-spirited about the request. I create aliases for everyone all the time on my system. In fact, I've given both you and Steve aliases on footbag.org. Why is it such an issue to ask for the same in return? I'm not sure how to interpret your reticence. In the last 4 years I thought we've been on a positive note, working with each other when we could and not against each other. You're using *lots* of services of my website and all I ask is one little alias. I'm not sure I understand why you're arguing with me about it. You've had laird@footbag.org forwarding to info@outercourt.com since late March.. And Steve's had danceman@footbag.org forwarding to danceman@footbag.com since October of '99. Why can't I have brat@footbag.com forwarded to brat@footbag.org? Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 09 10:39:03 2000 From: webmaster@footbag.com To: Steve Goldberg Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:54:31 -0600 Subject: Re: Hi CC: danceman@footbag.com On 6 Aug 2000, at 9:41, Steve Goldberg wrote: > >Explain how I could not see it is email addressed to you, please. > >Sandra > > Sandra, my request was simple and there's no need to me mean-spirited > about the request. I create aliases for everyone all the time on my > system. In fact, I've given both you and Steve aliases on > footbag.org. Why is it such an issue to ask for the same in return? > Steve, there is no issue nor any need for you to be mean-spirited and why don't you just answer the question? > I'm not sure how to interpret your reticence. In the last 4 years I > thought we've been on a positive note, working with each other when > we could and not against each other. You're using *lots* of services > of my website and all I ask is one little alias. I'm not sure I > understand why you're arguing with me about it. > I am content to have you delete laird@footbag.org pointed to info@outercourt.com deleted if you have a problem with it as well as webmaster@footbag.com deleted (you forgot to mention that does it still exist?) because you have censored me too much for my taste anyway. Your penchant for control and self- aggrandizement forgets that yours is a free service to anyone in the world so why do you try to use that to try to make me feel guilty? Were you doing me a special favor? I THINK NOT!!! In regard to danceman@footbag.com, that is not an alias but rather an email link to reach Foot Fencers in Willits. If you want to delete that it's okay with us. I merely registered in your discussion program to see what your "freestyle" talks about and have seen it almost exclusively sticks to your juggling stuff which we clearly do not label "freestyle" but note that it is just one type of it. I have not used anything from your stie, including all the email addresses that come through from your discussion group, because they are not interested in anything but juggling. So, it is of no importance to me or us if you delete us. > You've had laird@footbag.org forwarding to info@outercourt.com since > late March.. And Steve's had danceman@footbag.org forwarding to > danceman@footbag.com since October of '99. Why can't I have > brat@footbag.com forwarded to brat@footbag.org? You still didn't answer the question, Steve -- HOW COULD I NOT NOTICE THAT AN EMAIL IS ADDRESSED TO brat@footbag.org? I simply get none whether you believe it or not. I think one came through three years ago and I promptly forwarded it. We have not created any aliases for anyone and do not expect to do so. > > Steve > Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 09 10:44:19 2000 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: Hi Cc: danceman@footbag.com At 10:54 AM -0600 8/9/00, webmaster@footbag.com wrote: >Steve, there is no issue nor any need for you to be mean-spirited >and why don't you just answer the question? Why are you doing this? You are being defensive and antagonistic. I am a NICE PERSON. I really wish you would stop being so mean to me. I asked a simple request, a favor, and you shot back with a "no" answer and dismissed my request out of hand because you didn't think it mattered. Well, I know for a *fact* that someone sent mail to me at brat@footbag.com just last week, but you certainly didn't forward it to me. You didn't realize it was for me. If you just set up an alias so that all mail sent to brat@footbag.com redirected automatically to me, you wouldn't have to worry about it, and neither would I! >I am content to have you delete laird@footbag.org pointed to >info@outercourt.com deleted if you have a problem with it as well >as webmaster@footbag.com deleted (you forgot to mention that >does it still exist?) because you have censored me too much for >my taste anyway. Why are you so nasty? >In regard to danceman@footbag.com, that is not an alias but rather >an email link to reach Foot Fencers in Willits. If you want to >delete that it's okay with us. I have not *once* insinuated that I would delete *anything*. YOU ARE A MEAN-SPIRIED PERSON AND I WILL NOT TRY TO DEAL WITH YOU WHEN YOU ACT THIS WAY. Steve, please talk to your friend Sandra. As you know because we are at least cordial in person, I am not a mean person and I do *not* deserve this mean treatment from your webmaster. Steve, please *please* talk to her about how she is coming across to other people. She is treating me like crud and it's not right. I DO NOT DESERVE THIS. >You still didn't answer the question, Steve -- HOW COULD I NOT >NOTICE THAT AN EMAIL IS ADDRESSED TO brat@footbag.org? I have no idea! You definitely missed it, though. My request was *simple* and friendly, and you should have done it without giving me attitude about it. I don't understand you at all. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 09 10:46:43 2000 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: Hi Cc: danceman@footbag.com At 10:54 AM -0600 8/9/00, webmaster@footbag.com wrote: >because you have censored me too much for my taste anyway. >Your penchant for control and self-aggrandizement forgets that yours is a >free service to anyone in the world so why do you try to use that to >try to make me feel guilty? What are you talking about, anyway? I have *not* censored you. You are confused. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed Aug 09 10:53:30 2000 To: webmaster@footbag.com From: Steve Goldberg Subject: Re: Hi Cc: danceman@footbag.com At 10:54 AM -0600 8/9/00, webmaster@footbag.com wrote: >Your penchant for control and self-aggrandizement forgets that yours is a >free service to anyone in the world so why do you try to use that to >to make me feel guilty? >Were you doing me a special favor? I THINK NOT!!! The point is that I am pouring my heart, soul, time, and money into my website because I love the sport. There is *no* conflict there, between any of us. I work *hard* -- you can label that self-aggrandizement if you want, but I don't get my kicks from spending tens of hours a month keeping my site working. As you probably understand, there is a balance, and I work really hard to achieve it. When kids put club listings on my site that use profanity and make fun of a given religion, for example, I remove them. Call that draconian and self-aggrandizing if you want, but *please* show me a case where I've controlled some part of my website (club list, event list, etc.) in a way that's truly self-aggrandizing. I've given away free disk space, I've allowed anyone in the world to create their own accounts, I've built tons of software to enable a community to come together online. I've handed mailing list management off to another person (I don't control the footbag.org mailing lists anymore and haven't for 9 months!). You are anger incarnate, Sandra. You really really really need to start taking anti-depressant drugs so you don't reflect all your anger on innocent friendly hard-working people like me. Your conspiracy theories are *ridiculous*. Clearly all our friendly conversations over the last few years were a ruse on your part. I was being sincerely friendly to you, and you've reciprocated, *AGAIN*, with accusation, negativity, meanness, anger, hatred, despite, and contempt. I think you are without hope. But I will pray for you anyway. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri Aug 11 12:41:49 2000 From: webmaster@footbag.com Received: from computer [209.75.134.143] by mail.compuweb.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.03) id AF726F011E; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:53:06 -0400 To: Steve Goldberg Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:06:34 -0600 Subject: Re: Hi CC: danceman@footbag.com Steve Goldberg, Leave me alone. Sandra On 9 Aug 2000, at 10:53, Steve Goldberg wrote: > At 10:54 AM -0600 8/9/00, webmaster@footbag.com wrote: > >Your penchant for control and self- > >aggrandizement forgets that yours is a free service to anyone in the > >world so why do you try to use that to try to make me feel guilty? > >Were you doing me a special favor? I THINK NOT!!! > > The point is that I am pouring my heart, soul, time, and money into > my website because I love the sport. There is *no* conflict there, > between any of us. > > I work *hard* -- you can label that self-aggrandizement if you want, > but I don't get my kicks from spending tens of hours a month keeping > my site working. As you probably understand, there is a balance, and > I work really hard to achieve it. When kids put club listings on my > site that use profanity and make fun of a given religion, for > example, I remove them. Call that draconian and self-aggrandizing if > you want, but *please* show me a case where I've controlled some part > of my website (club list, event list, etc.) in a way that's truly > self-aggrandizing. I've given away free disk space, I've allowed > anyone in the world to create their own accounts, I've built tons of > software to enable a community to come together online. I've handed > mailing list management off to another person (I don't control the > footbag.org mailing lists anymore and haven't for 9 months!). > > You are anger incarnate, Sandra. You really really really need to > start taking anti-depressant drugs so you don't reflect all your > anger on innocent friendly hard-working people like me. Your > conspiracy theories are *ridiculous*. > > Clearly all our friendly conversations over the last few years were a > ruse on your part. I was being sincerely friendly to you, and you've > reciprocated, *AGAIN*, with accusation, negativity, meanness, anger, > hatred, despite, and contempt. I think you are without hope. But I > will pray for you anyway. > > Steve > Sandra O'Connor webmaster@footbag.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri Aug 11 12:41:49 2000 From: webmaster@footbag.com To: Steve Goldberg Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:06:34 -0600 Subject: Re: Hi Did it ever occur to you that the person who sent the email addressed it wrong? THERE HAS BEEN NO BRAT@FOOTBAG.COM EMAIL COME THROUGH. I did not miss anything. Sandra On 9 Aug 2000, at 10:44, Steve Goldberg wrote: > At 10:54 AM -0600 8/9/00, webmaster@footbag.com wrote: > >Steve, there is no issue nor any need for you to be mean-spirited > >and why don't you just answer the question? > > Why are you doing this? You are being defensive and antagonistic. I